Third Millennium Education
Third Millennium Education

Episode 10 · 1 year ago

Matthew Gordon, CEO and Founder of Spectra

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Matthew Gordon is the CEO and Founder of Spectra, the delivery partner for the Care Leavers Covenant.

“Wider society has a role to play in supporting our young people to thrive. That is the central premise of the covenant. That is not just the state’s responsibility but the wider society has a role in nurturing, fostering and enabling.”
"I had come into the social care space in earnest in 2014, and I was amazed at some of the lack of empathy that existed for our young people.

How our young people are nurtured at home is integral to their positive outcomes.

If we turn our attention to our young people who are in care? What is that home environment like? What is the ambition like? What is the vision for that young person? And do we have a vision? Can we honestly say that for some of those individuals coming from lower economic backgrounds? Do we have a vision that they couldn't be anything that they want to be in terms of their professional trajectory? And if we do have that vision, are we facilitating that ambition? And are we cheerleaders for those young people?

Young people in long term foster care are significantly better than those who are in residential care who have had multiple moves.

For 5 years, we refused to use agency staff because its about trust. Our young people need to feel safe and secure.

Peter Bazalgette’s book Empathy Instinct talks about how we do cognitively understand empathy and emotional empathy. It's that psychic transition that allows us to say, I will do that shift, even though I've worked 10 hours already or 12 hours already, I would rather work that shift than my young person being introduced to a complete stranger. And I think that's the psychic transition that is fundamental for improving outcomes.

And this person, young man was having a meltdown before my eyes. And that emotional empathy kicked in. And I said, Do you need a hug? And you know, with all of the snot and tears, he nodded his head and came in for the hug. And I'm glad that I did it.

I'm delighted to be hosting this podcast. Third Millennium Education. It's a collection of thoughts and inspirations of stakeholders within education. What is education for? On who is it serving? This's a podcast exploring state mandated education, its relevance impact and how it can best meet the needs of third millennium learners. Employers on the country. My interview. Exciting people who have had direct experience of education. Whether you are a parent, training to be a teacher, a policy maker and academic or an education innovator, nobody working attack. There will be something for you. I'm your host. Zanna Hopes Mac, you thought Welcome to the third Millennium Education podcast. It's my delights to welcome you here. You are very welcome. You are the founder ofthe Spectre I consultancy and delivery organisation, focusing on young people. But you're also a delivery partner for the care leavers Covenant. So you've got a vast experience professionally on potentially what some of the most vulnerable young people in our society needs from an education system. But also you will have your own personal experience of education. So what? And I opened by just getting you to set out your educational store. What's your experience. What do you think with your engagement in touch points? Um, yet great question. And I were Spectra, not SPECTRE. So I'm less of a bond villain, such sadly, But I'm one of the good guys. At least I think so. What you got written down here in large letters and we'll set it wrong. It's quite all right. It's quite all right to begin Where? More Volkswagen. The nasty Martin Reliable You see? You see what I did there? OK, clever. I like it So So my were honoured. Firstly, to be the delivery partner for the care leave the covenant, it's ah, it's It's massive the challenge that our country faces in making sure that there is equity for our young people on DH, I think we've been late to the party, but now we've started that conversation and we are convicted and convinced that we will retain this mo mentum that is here in terms of my personal experience. While spectra is led by empathy, that's what drives everything that we do. I had came into this social care spaced in earnest in 2014 on, I was amazed at some of the lack of empathy that existed for our young people. I'm quite baffled, to be honest, you know, asking myself the question if we was, if we were committed to social mobility and ensuring that our young people get the very best Well, we weren't doing enough based on what I could see. What I observed was that our young people of being warehouse on DH if we that is not enough, if we're going to radically reform the status quo. So in terms of my person experience, which is possibly one of the reasons why it's not just cognitive empathy but emotional empathy. When I was at school, I failed miserably on. I knew Andre recognise some of the building blocks that weren't there. Um, that wasn't because I had two very loving, committed parents. But there was a number of incidents which meant that there was strife on DH, that my parents were distracted at times, and I I was reminded of what that strife actually meant in terms of the data when I sat in on a lecture by the former education secretary, Damian Hinds, and he spoke...

...quite eloquently about what happens when you're looking at the home environment what happens when well, homes and families are in strife and how some of our young people can get missed. We're not checking. Reports were not ensuring that homework is done. Um, we're not following up on key things on DH. What the data highlighted from the Children in need research was that that can have an impact off eight grades lower across nine subjects. Andi, if that young person happens, have a social worker at any point off the year five, that could be as low as 20 grades points. So how our young people are nurtured at home is integral to their positive outcomes. So if we turn our attention to our young people who are in care, what is that? Home environment? Life? What is the ambition like, What is the vision for that young person? Um, do we have a vision? Can we honestly say that some of those individuals who have come from lower economic backgrounds do we have a vision that they couldn't be anything that they want to be in terms of their professional trajectory? And if we do have that vision, are we facilitating that ambition on our we cheerleaders for those young people on DH. I'm pleased to say that what the difference for me was that even though there was strife, there was a vision for me on DH. I think that is what has helped me find my way through and at different points. There were chilly chill. Excuse me, cheerleaders. I think those three components are absolutely essential. If we're going to stop the rot and reverse that that deficit model, that's really interesting. I'm gonna come back to your cheerleading points. But looking at mainstream education as it stands at the moment, how badly is it failing young people in the care system will be without being very topical. Let's look at the data, Um, if we if we look at what came out a couple of years ago, insensitive. Our young people transition into further and higher education are at six and 7% for the young participation rate, rising to 12% if you're 21. But only 50% about when you won. Your olds have a Level two who have experienced care have a Level two qualification. That's unacceptable, especially when you contrast that to 25% off the prison population have experienced timing care. It's dreadful on, it's exceedingly bad and we something has to be done. And it's not something that can be resolved in a two or three year funding cycle. There needs to be a 10 20 years strategy to reverse this this downward trend. And I think if we're honest, we've been aware ofthe this were a while. One of the things that the Education Secretary highlighted was a couple of years ago that we have our young people who were in care and and those stats. But those who are in need those outcomes are nearly as bad as our young people in care. So we're probably we're probably looking at a million plus young people who are adversely affected and and with the challenges of the last 12 months with cold bid a lot of work to do for us. I mean, the statistics are genuinely shocking and actually shaming on us as a country that we can fail our most vulnerable young people so badly...

...and then taking your point about your own experience in trouble and strife in the family. On the broader category of Children in need, we are failing, then nearly as badly. Yes, but when you look at the education system on DH state school, what could we do? What is it failing so badly on what needs to happen? So so I I say we genuinely because the job at hand is far too large. It's enormous for a social worker or a teacher or a minister to resolve it. I definitely think that wider society has a role to play in supporting our young people to thrive on. That is the central premise off the covenant that it's not just the state's responsibility, but why the society have a role in nurturing and fostering on enabling. So whatever we do, um, I need to play. My part on that is to challenge our elected officials to doom or and come up with ideas of how they Khun B use their ingenuity. But also I see myself as being part off that solution, so that might look like a mentoring programme and giving volunteering my time, arranging for internships at my company, taking time out to be off service to our young people who are in need. I think we are past that point where it's I just look after my own, um, that that well, cut it anymore where it's, I would say that it's a crisis. So one of the solutions is that we all as citizens off the UK because we're talking predominantly here about England in the UK, we all take some ownership. You don't think about what we can do, whether we're employers or individuals to support our most disadvantaged young people and those with the the the least protective factors in their lives. What in the schools do themselves differently? Much of my role doesn't much of my road. Doesn't liaise with schools directly. We do work with the virtual schools because it's 16 to 25 for the covenant when I am aware of our excellent programmes like 80 you in run in conjunction with three local authorities in the University of Wolverhampton on what they do is a model which we designed for them, where they had undergraduates going into schools to mental themselves, to build aspirations and to raise attainment levels. But this was quite different because we started in your seven on. The ambition was that we would Mansel some of our most disenfranchised young people, puts the age of water a year, that scene. And so this commitment to starting early, um, to set that trajectory to build that ambition is is what I think schools need to be cognisant off on. I would go as young as your five. Um, you know that earlier we start these conversations the in terms of building that vision, facilitating that dialogue, building that social and cultural capital, the better it is for our young people. And so that's that's again that integration off people from the outside on DH within schools coming together, Teo race aspirations to think about attainment levels, aunt, to help young people see a vision of the future. I...

...mean, I think you almost described as having a cheerleader on to see that I first. I'm interested particularly today because today is the announcement today that we're recording. This has been the announcement that we are No, we're not doing exams for juicy asses and a levels this year finally finalised, there will be no little miniature vans. He's gonna be entirely teacher assessed. What do you think that because you've identified the attainment gap between young people in care on DH, other young people, you know the general population, the other general population. If we're saying that actually there is another way which we are clearly Teo assess somebody's ability to go onto the next stage of learning and it isn't in exam based model. What do you think that would do for young people in care? If we make that the norm, would it be a benefit would be a disadvantage? Do we actually need a sort of hurdle that they have to jump? What are your thoughts on that? I don't think I know enough about the what the current recommendations. What I would say is, whatever that assessment model is going forward, it is not one size fits all on DH. If we have a commitments to finding the right match for our young people who may be disenfranchised, you might be need. Then let's invest time in finding just something that is fitting and it's fit for purpose. Whatever that looks like on that is going to take diligence in order to get the right balance. Oh, hi. I'm going back to something you said earlier, right about this lack of you know, this camp in entertainment and then mentioning that you're very involved with virtual schools, one of the issues that affect a lot of young people. In Kerry's The churn. They mostly has 10 12, sometimes shocking 16 placements. And so there isn't actually even the attendance, often in mainstream school, because they constantly move right. You do you think that has a fundamental impact on their in their learning? What, one music? That we have to do this? Why do they move so often without? Without question, Senator, it is. It's horrifying. So my very first young person, Brian, who came to me in 2014, who I spoke to a couple of days ago, 32 times I was his final placement. You can't build any real confidence when you're moving on average at one period every three months, so that's broken. Fundamentally, that's broken on DH. Being we wrote there is that there is amazing philosopher Cornel Dr Cornel West and and he says, I am who I am, who I am because somebody cared for me. Somebody nurtured me. Somebody poured into me on DH. The reality is that if you have so much disruption, don't be surprised if that young person is in a lot of chaos in crisis. Um, it is not going to be seamless, a smooth transition it'll they've ever experienced or a lot of what they have experienced his being devastating, um, rejection. So I absolutely believe it is one of the key reasons that our Children in care don't achieve their full potential. It's it's it's terrible. And so that goes back to actually addressing our care system as much as our education system 32 times. Being moved 32 times is just shocking. I'm not saying that...

...necessarily resulted in 32 schools, but it probably resulted in a huge number of schools. Um, on the fact that Brian is functioning, a tour is all credit to him. When you look at the care system, I'm only interested in this matter because I started life in the residential social worker in what was known if then on adult residential. Sorry, an adolescent residential facility on DH. Although it was never designed as a long term, it was a therapeutic community, and young people came for 32 to 3 to four years. But actually being a residential facility gave then the Space Teo act down some of that disturbance and shown on DH to have safe boundaries. That perhaps would have been impossible in for an example of foster family situation on DH. That was back in the eighties because I'm not as young as I clearly look on the early eighties, unfortunately, but Lynley In the period of the nineties and into the early noughties, there was a real driver to say. No young people, when they're removed from their own natural family or birth family, had must just be put in. Another family on the residential homes was closed down in Sue's. What are your thoughts about that? So, like the environment, you know, should we get a better balance with with residential, or is it really the strive always for a sort of foster family arrangement? Well, when we look at the data around those really long, those young people who really long so in foster care on, they are significantly better than those who were in residential care who have had multiple moves. And so that speaks to the earlier points about strife on the importance of stability. So if we can offer our young people stability than that for me, would always be preferable when we talk about our young people who were in a residential setting a group home setting training is a real issue. Um, one of the things that we were quite proud off before we suspended residential activity only in the final two weeks of operation when we had a young person who was in hospitalised did we use agency star. So for five years, I refused to use agencies that Why is that? Because it's about trust. Ah, nde. Our young people need to feel safe and secure the challenges that that model was a principal position for me. I don't know how sustainable that would be is the business model. So there is this interplay between what we know and believe is appropriate and write and offers Valium people security on DH financing that Andi, I don't have a credible answer for that. But all I know is that when our young people had consistency, when there was stability that they will always almost always far more settled. Yeah, I totally get that. And certainly my own experience of working residential with we had I secure starting. Yes, I never even considered way. Never used agency ever. There was a cover needed for a shift. We did it internally because it was just would never have entered our heads to bring in a stranger into so sweet any more than you know, I suppose. But I suppose on my kids, even actually my own Children didn't actually have baby...

...sitters that often they would be lucky enough. Mommy just got drunk at home. Yeah, but you're a really interesting point. There's enter in that that that is something from within. So, you know, Peter Basil Jets book empathy, instinct he talks about. Do we cognitively understand something? It seems it's cognitive empathy and an emotional empathy. Andi, you know, cognitively, we get it. This is the right thing today, a right thing to do. Of course, this is appropriate, but emotionally to we get it because it's that transition that creates the difference. Is that transition that psychic transition that allows us to say, um, I will do that shift even though that I've I've worked 10 hours already or 12 hours already? I would rather work that shift, then my young person being introduced to a complete stranger, and I think that's the psychic transition that is fundamental for to improve outcomes. I think that empathy point is really interesting when we take it back to on education environment. Because you know what? I been doing the podcast and talking to people. If anybody picked anything really good out their own experience and education quite often it is the teacher. Yeah. Mr So and so Mrs so and so you know, some, some, even in very sort of foresight. Schools even knew the first thing is the sum of their teachers. And it was It was about that relationship. What are your thoughts about 11 of true empathy that is shown in schools to our young people? Firstly, our young people in care, But then that wider, wider group of young people are in these. Have we got that right? No. Generally, I don't think we have um I don't know that we've really I think if we have, we're just flirting with it. You know, when you feel moved to take action. That's when I think you are emotionally invested in that activity on DH. It takes a lot of energy. Two being to demonstrate emotional empathy. It's not easy. Especially when our young people have been traumatised. Excuse me. Hiccups on the podcast. Okay, now, when our young people have been traumas, honest. So no, I don't think that as a culture it is very as present as it needs to be in certain settings. And but, yes, I do believe it takes an awful lot of effort to get to a point off. Relevance. Impact. It's a lot of work on. I will be committed to that. I'm not sure. However, I would say not everybody needs to be operating at that high level. But we do need to have a core members of our team who understand it. Who can be the thought leaders on DH, the cheerleaders around that particular subjects of empathy? Yeah, I think that's interesting. And one of the things I was you have the cups. I have a car. Why not call it? One of the things that I remember is we really went down this professionalisation of social work, including residential social work, with people saying Let's be careful not to professionalise out care when we're looking at safeguarding practise and procedures. Let's be careful not to make it so difficult to give somebody a hug that you no longer do it. Let's think about how we ensure that that very basic human contact on...

...human interaction remains are on. That was big debates in social work on residential care. And I wonder if, with this drive that we have put on teachers constant and relentless drive to demonstrate accountability. Show me the progress points. Show me your scheme of work. Show me your marking standards. Evident why you think tanks has achieved. Why get the results, you know? Take them from a today. I wonder if we we've sort of somehow devalued that build a relationship, Follow the passion, explore the interests? No, the person piece that has always been very fundamental to teaching. I I value what you're saying and I recognise that Zanna, You know that getting to know you establishing the rap hall is crucial for our young people because it allows us to weather the storms without that report. Without that trust, without that bond, I mean, you can survive with everybody is a high achiever, and you've got all of these quiet, ambitious targets. Great, you know, functional, stretching, Great. But if there's any strife, it needs a little bit more than that. I remember attending Ryan's final care review just before he turned 18 aunt. He was so distressed because he they wanted to put him in a local authority that he hadn't bean in four or five years. Hey wants it to be closer to people that he knew and had a relationship with on that wasn't available to him on DH. He was. He was in sixes and sevens, really? On DH. He I remember him ordering everybody out social workers, person advisers and someone on DH. It was just myself and Ryan in the room on DH. I remember telling this this storey and training day, the department on DH. It's burst into tears on DH. So here was this young man just before his 18th birthday, and I was in the room, another male, and I remember thinking, Okay, ordinarily, I would go in and put my arm around my own kids. And then I remember thinking, Is this safe? Can I do it? Can I? What can I do? And this person young man was having a meltdown before my eyes, and that emotional empathy kicked in on DH, I said, Do you need a hug, Andi. You know, with all of the snot and tears, He hey nodded his head and came in for the hug on DA. I'm glad that I did it. If, ah, what somebody else isn't j. You're not feature in this podcast. Wait, not on. And I'm glad that I did it on DH. You know, he remembers that day, and six years later, we still speak to each other every week. And I still take him out to algae to do his top up shopping because we establish something that was beyond the prescribed protocol. Now, that's not something that I can offer to everybody. But we offered that to each other. What you found there was that I offered and he accepted. He...

...could have declined. Yeah, buddy, but he But he didn't on DH it. It's I think it's cemented something. It was definitely a moment. Um, and I think I think that is missing. But it's also a risk. Yeah, which we need to be really sure. Because, you know, safeguarding is, is, is, is not to be taken lightly, but it's a tricky balance. It's a very tricky balance for our colleagues in the social work space to show that love and compassion and still feel safe. Yeah, um, so that that's a mission. But in terms of my role on, that's how I see is a citizen that I can offer that ongoing on positive regard. I'm sure it will if you and Ryan still remember, it has meant something to him. But I do have to just ask please tell me they found something for Ryland. Didn't mean he had to move on his 18th birthday from the locality where he knew somebody to a place for a new nobody. But the the Storey about Ryan's accommodation is is ugly. What I would say so it Yeah, if you want to end on a positive note, we probably need to skip that. What I would say is, um, through a number of battles that we fought on his behalf, Um, he's now has a secure tenancy, but that happened two weeks before the first lock down. He left care in 2000, October 20th, 2015. That's been a long journey. Well, I hope he is secure, tenancy lasts, and he's managed to make Cem friendships and relationships around him. There are also going to last, but bringing us back to two things I wanted to pick up on one wass around this notion that you have about not just what education can do for young people who were in trouble and strife in their home lives. But you indicated it was a community response that helped you re engage what you're learning. What were the sort of cornerstones of that that after failing at school, you then we're able to re engage? Yeah, excellent question. So, as I said when I was younger, my mom had a vision. She didn't really understand Hey, CI or my father. But somebody that she used to work for did on DH advise my mom to start saving. So she did. And I, you know, saved my family allowance. And, um and so the strike happened and I didn't leave school with any GCC is the first time around or anything that I was proud off. But something quite remarkable happened, so I was It's a They're a meeting with the church on DH. One of I saw one of my camp leaders who had met about four years prior to when I was about 12. 30 and he ran and I d departments in the capital on DH. He said, What are you doing? And I mumbled because I didn't want to dis close Andi home. And then he said, Why don't you come into your work experience with me And I Was I OK? London. So is our pay us and okay. Okay. Paid me. Andi, I must have worked there, um, for months, the first time that I worked every holiday. So I was going back Easter work through the six weeks holidays. I...

...mean, by the end of it, I was absolutely loaded. That's a 17 year old, but he just exposed me to what was possible on whilst a lot of my peers were unravelling because they didn't have that connexion. I did on it. And it did save me. Absolutely said when it gave me and allowed me to join the docks in terms of what I was doing. Is my job my first vocational qualification and what was possible? Our young people need to have exposure to what is possible on that needs to be facilitated. And that's what Paul Chisholm, who I still speak to to this very day now as much as Ryan. But it was it was quite transformative on it was over, probably the period of 18 months, but it was facilitating that opportunity, and that was a community peace. I had nothing to do with the school or anything else. That's really beautifully sake weighing me onto what I also wanted Teo askyou about talk to you about is that off as ah on employer Because he was paying you as an employer. He obviously saw actitud in you on attitude a talent that he felt was worth fostering and nurturing and presumably would have some benefit to his business on that was completely odds with what you're If you like your passport out of education, your technical piece of paper wass because that was not very good. That wasn't 5 80 sees with English and math by the sound of it. What is it that you think employers look for if they're going to look above and beyond the bit of pain? Yeah. Driven. Consistent. Um, I suppose it was alike have been busy that you know that you can somehow fit. I mean, by the end of the experience. What I did discovers and I absolutely hated I t no interest in being in Novello lotus notes or whatever it was in the nineties. But I think he knew that. But there was also this commitment to I'm not sure that it was this, but you'll find your way at the moment. We're just facilitating this opportunity and we can afford we can, um we can afford to do that s so that's your point. In terms of benefit, I don't know that there was a massive benefit for for the company. I wasn't improving profits. Okay, three eyes, but But I think he saw it as a civic duty. Andi, I feel quite similar now with some of the young people. So going back to your point in terms of characteristics, somebody that's him ambitious. Somebody that is likeable has a keenness. Keenness to learn on DH. Yeah, keenness to learn. That's sort of what you look for as an employer. Where does not being some? I think that's what Paul looks for me. What do you look for? Do you look for those things as an employer yet? Yet I do. In addition to that I I looked for somebody who's quite creative. That brings ideas. And so that goes back to this cognitive diversity piece that Matthew Syed writes about. Um, I like I like ideas. Now I'm I'm I'm considered old by Generation Z. So you know, I...

...don't have social media or anything like that, but if I'm told that it's essential that I have it on, so I'm not the person for that. But Cem Cem, bright 18 year old, might have all of the answers on. I'm really happy for them to advise me on that. Um, so it's those that creative energy that new knows somebody's contemporary, who is open to sharing some of their ideas. I love that talent and creativity at the moment. I don't think and please challenge me if you do. I don't think that any of the accreditation, necessarily that you get from having bond to school, actually demonstrates those things. So as an employer, just saying that somebody has a possibly if they had, um, a media studies gtsi, you might think they might know something about social media. But generally, what prices do you go through then? To really understand what somebody is potentially going to bring to your company, or do you rely on those bits of paper? Do you advertise seven GC essays or whatever? Well, that's it. I don't really, I think, for some of the more senior roles clearly would have to advertise for certain sets of qualifications or experience. But for for new young talent, it's about conversations, Really. We recruited somebody who's 20 who is just that social media tech genius that I think he is. I've known him for about three years. I did Cem volunteering with his company that he was training in on. He left on DH. I've always thought that he was talented, um, on DH wear, definitely giving him an opportunity to demonstrate just how talented he is. I don't know if it has any qualifications. I think so he might have. This is apprenticeship, but that's no when when you are, um, fixated on passion and talent, what they tell you demonstrates everything you need to know. So he will. He knows everything about new platforms. He's able to research. He's able to learn and find out new things. That's what interests me. Um, and the rest is about how he's able to fit in the team. Um, but the initial attractive nurses, you know, Matthew, what do you think of this? Or have you heard of this? Hey, it was a black bomb called Discord that gamers use on DH. And he said, Have you heard of discord? And I said, Ah, no, Um, how old are which? Which I love that kind of just cheekiness because it he has and skill sets that I don't have But But it's hey, hasn't come from traditional routes, and that's okay. I can make that work in my organisation. I don't know about others, but I could make that work and I want to make it work. I'll actually be employers that I talk Teo for this podcast, but also in other spheres are passionate abad how they can bring something to the education system that can help young people on how they tracked in recruit talent, which actually doesn't rely on the standard matrix in the standard formula that that your space to get. I want to just take it on a slightly different direction before we conclude our lovely conversation on DH. You talked a lot about young people in care on those people who are young people, from a low...

...socioeconomic backgrounds and in my day what we used to call poor, not much money. And we seem to have 2.5 million kids who are not eating properly due to poverty in their households at the moment, just terrifying. But there are also another group of young people, and particularly boys from black and African Caribbean backgrounds who seem to statistically, the additionally disadvantaged by education on I wanted. If you have any specific thoughts from your own experience in school or potentially your Children's experience around that issue of, you know, is structural racism still alive and well in our education system, or is it not actually an issue? And there are other factors that are leading to this reduction in results and lack of parity in achievement. It's a subject matter that's very close to my heart on DH. I know that I experienced it, and I'd be hard pressed to find any young that will blackmail that hasn't encountered some challenges, um, and what they would describe as structural racism. So that's that's my experience on DH. What can be done about it. Well, I think it's a It's a there was There was a bit that I think society Khun do in terms of the leaders of the institution in terms of educating themselves on the, um, historic behaviours. So when we Steve McQueen's film around, that's the subnormal culture that happened in the sixties. Subnormal teaching classrooms, um, collectives, that mindset that black boys in particular, um, great on the track on the football field, but horrible in the classroom that needs to be challenged. Um, the hyper masculinity that's placed the rock on blackmails needs to be challenged. Um, we see what this stereotyping and pigeonholing has created is that you answer secondary education and sometimes believing that you have to fulfil some of those roles on when that might not be you. Yeah, you might. You might be horrible. That football or which I wass or any sport in particular and quiet love physics. Um ah, nde. Do we see that talent do we support that? I remember when I walked into a boxing club had these ambitions, it was already Harrison and won and dealing picks into 2000, and that's what I'll do on. I remember walking into the gym on DH. Well, hope. What? The name was the trainer in Brightly Hill in the Midlands, and and he said, Oh my goodness, you look like a Greek God on I felt I felt amazing, right? You know, I looked pretty fit in those days, but that's never happened to me in a classroom. Never, never entered me in a classroom where people I walk into a classroom or into a business meeting and people think I think that you're going to deliver something will happen something quite significant on DH. I think it's that shift in mindset that needs to happen to reverse that trend off perpetual underachievement. Andi, I think you're right, and I think it is. I think it's something also about those stereotypes,...

...because statistically, Children from a black or minority ethnic community are more likely to be excluded in primary school than any other group. And I think some of that is about just understanding behaviours. And some of that's a bad for some young people. Maybe English is in the first language, but some of that is about the expectation. I look around the class and I'm going to expect you to be more naughty than you. It's right unless we start naming that. I'm shaming that. True, because it is shameful. I think it's gonna be more difficult to overcome that, whether it's a little microaggression or whether it's a hard and fast assumption. It is ever present, I think. But of course, then when you look at the population of teachers and you look at the populations in the classrooms of people from device backgrounds and then the teaching population, they don't match up. So there is something about saying How do we get you mean not now established a pinnacle of your career, Matthew. But how did we attract you to teaching in the first place? And did we do anything to do that? No, no, I wasn't. I wasn't attracted to teaching. But, um, I think even when we do a trap teaching staff from, um, racial minorities, they still need empathy on DH. That is it, really, which is for me. I've had I've had a lots of conversations around racial disparity. Andi, you know what needs to be done? What doesn't need to be done at the heart of it. We really do need to train our empathetic muscle in order to make a difference in the lives off our young people who are at most at risk and in need. Um, so I I hope that a more diverse work force is is on the cards, where the diverse workforce that has little empathy sets us back because that would even create an illusion. So in enduring Teo, close my thing. One of the things that would be a take out from you if you had a magic wand would be to build empathy, muscle training into the teacher training curriculum. Yes, yes. Empathy. Muscle culturally competent on DH. Resilient. Let's see if we can get that in the curriculum for teacher training. Matthew. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to May I have a lovely thank you. Appreciate it. You know, thank you for listening to this episode of Third Millennium Education. I'd like to know what has been your biggest takeaway from this conversation. If he did enjoy this episode, do hit the subscribe button to continue to receive future episodes. If you would like to be interviewed or you know somebody who would be good to interview. Please also get in touch. I hope you'll join me on the next episode. And together we can carry on the conversation to ensure that we can best meet the needs of Third Millennium Learners employers in the country. Thank you again and see you on the next episode. Yeah.

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