Third Millennium Education
Third Millennium Education

Episode 7 · 1 year ago

Marty Cofie, Creative Innovator, Personal Trainer & Educator

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Join us this week in Third Millennium Education where we are delighted to welcome Marty Cofie, a creative innovator, personal trainer and educator with three children, two still at school and adapting to home learning during the pandemic. I talk to her about her experience of education, and how she helped her kids to adapt with learning during Covid-19 lockdown period. 

Marty Cofie says “I'd say my first thing would be a lot of listening. A lot of listening. So watching, listening humbly and encouraging their children and also letting them teach me stuff because the curriculum that my children were learning is some of it is stuff that if I did learn it, I don't remember it.”

Third Millennium Education, it is a collection of thoughts and inspirations of stakeholders within education. What is education for and who is it serving?

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To connect with Zenna Hopson go to www.zennahopson.com 

I'm delighted to be hosting this podcast. Third Millennium Education. It's a collection of thoughts and inspirations of stakeholders within education. What is education for? On who is it serving? This's a podcast exploring state mandated education, its relevance impact and how it can best meet the needs of third millennium learners. Employers on the country. My interview. Exciting people who have had direct experience of education. Whether you are a parent, training to be a teacher, a policy maker and academic or an education innovator, nobody working attack. There will be something for you. I'm your host, Zanna hopes. Welcome to my podcast, Third Millennium Education, where we are looking at fundamentally, what's the purpose of education and who it's for? And I'm delighted to welcome Marty Kofi to join May. Thank you for having me, Senna. My absolute pleasure. Marty Kofi is just to give you a bit of an introduction. Somebody who went through education herself on DH is the mother of three with quite a broad age range. I think they go from 28 down 2027 to 11, 27 to 11 on. Marty has been involved in hands on learning and education for? Well, decades. So I welcome you, Marty, and I'm really looking forward to talking to you. It would be really helpful if you could start off by just talking to me a little bit. About what's your experience of education? Okay, well, that's an easy one. I do remember I'm not that old. I can remember being at school. I think education for May was a mixed bag. I started off in the primary school that I found really challenging because it was very much geared towards the academic learning and getting people through the 11 person getting them on to go to private schools, which I didn't do, not because I couldn't, but because I chose not to. So I felt education wasn't for May at that boy. And then I went to secondary school, and I was lucky enough to end up with a really amazing school that was centred on broad based learning and a lot of sport and a lot of art. And there was there were trialling loads of new education trying out on the comprehensive schools. You know how it goes, but really successfully What hap What star stuff is a really tricky school ended up being is now our revenge revered, paid to send your Children. It's an aspirational school. Where is when I went? There is where the Children went, who would couldn't go anywhere else. But they tried everything with us, and it worked. They really put the pedal to the metal to try and make us feel heard, understood and looked after her. But that education model soon was ditched in favour of other things. So when I went on to do my A levels, I found myself back in an education system that didn't work for May, and it works for some. I did get through my levels, but by the skin of my teeth. It works for some, but it didn't work for me. Any highly...

...structured loads of paperwork, not person sense of learning, just one size fits all. Get in, tip these boxes get out. I don't remember one single thing I learned in my A levels where some of my juicy SC second quote bits of the stuff I learned because actually meant something to me. And I don't remember one of my teachers either. That did my A levels, even though it was intensive, but I remember every single one of my teachers. The government's reemerges. Yes, he's by name, you know. I mean, I really meant it. So that work. Then my daughter went to school. That was, I mean, she. She struggled at school. She's she managed it. And God knows she's a grafter. That girl she'll put herself. I hoped that actually actually leave education going to an apprenticeship because I thought it was a better fit. But she hands down, refused to do that and just soldiered on, regardless, slogged away. Her schools were her primary school. She went to three different schools, and they all had fairly kind of simple, structured, learning. Antiquated, I would call it. I feel education for Children is great in the early years, and it gets worse and worse and worse. Like I remember going into my boys primary school and I walked in and he was about eight years old. I was showing us what we're gonna do today, and it invites us in, and they still have beautiful table set up visual learning somewhere you could sit quietly and read about the topic. All these different tables set up around the room, and I was like, Oh, my God, his definitely going to learn, unfortunately, was owning something ridiculous. Some sort of weird crap about the Second World War, which you know. Anyway, don't get me started on that one. But what they were learning wasn't that interested in how they were learning it. Bloody brilliant, really, really good. And he really drived. Joe just kind of picked up the ball and learn how to learn his way. And he was really held in there. And really, and so was L V. I mean, nobody's l B will sit there and watch other people do things, and at first they thought he was a bit peculiar because there was no engaging with her class. He's not and, as I know just is never going to do anything until he feels like you could do it better than anyone else. It's going to go away and practise it privately on all of the different tables and then go back and do it. So may education that has moved on pretty far from pops to the boys. So in terms of Poppy, your oldest daughter, your child, your daughter, um, if she went to three different primary schools. I think it might be before what you felt her experience wass from one of those primary schools. Okay, Her first promise. Goal Wass. I was hopeful and having a great school wicked outdoor space. I chose it because it had a really good outdoor space on they'd started in a Lachmann. I mean, I was very young then. I was only, like, what, 22 when she started nursery there. Eso What was important to me was that she had hands on experience. She had a good experience there. The teachers seem to...

...really care about learning. They didn't bore the God, which was very important to May. So, yeah, she had a decent experience there at that school. She had some negative experiences. Another school. She experienced some horrible racism, but then who doesn't? Yeah, that's that's probably very true. Did you experience racism at school as well? Is that sort of thing multigenerational on a daily basis in my primary school, on a daily basis, nobody would sit next to me and people said, I smell of curry, which is ironic because I'm from Carnelian descent and we're not massive on curry But yeah, I had horrible racism in primary school. I was the only I was the only face of colour. There's a mixed race woman. I feel very lucky that I had such a strong base at home that that became less and it wasn't important. I just My dad just said I just think most of the world's very stupid and you're just going to have to go through life dealing with stupid people. That was that. What did you say to your daughter? To help her deal with that way, he said she went to school and experienced it as well. I tried to explain that people were lucky enough to have the broad base of cultural influence that she had. I really tried to educate on that one and just as funny, she just meant situated sensor programme. Yeah, just trying to explain that no, everybody is as lucky as her toe have thiss integrated society. Also, that school was outside of London in the nineties, which is often a lot harder than being inside London, which is so multi cultural, I think I think that was the big shock that was moving from the school where she wass. She was considered white, if you will, compared to the ethnic minorities in the school, because she's a course of black. So she was considered why she didn't It wasn't like she played with all the backup federal. Why it wasn't It wasn't a thing, but she She would always feel more that way in school. And I think she would be the last person to have thought of herself as being bullied for being black. So to be taken out of that environment and put in an environment where she was the blackest therefore on the arse end of it was a challenge for her Onda challenge for May as well as her as her mom and person. He's meant to be a real grown up, unable to like, you know, take care of things in the rounded, censored way when all I really wanted to do was burn the school down. Glad you didn't do that, but I completely understand your feelings were all metaphorically. No, actually, we're all Linus is when it comes to our Children on. Do you think your boy's house, their experience being through your middle stuns now in secondary and your baby is still a primary. What's their experience of learning being on racism? Well, I'm odd sight, I'll say. Racism has reared its ugly head for them only recently. But but their education has been so far, so...

...good tax. Would L. V started school already able to do so many things? As to Joe? I mean, funny enough. Joe and I were discussing his first ever nursery yesterday on. He said, Do you remember? I went into school, went and pretty much for the briefcase like he was off, you know, This was it. It's starting. His little life packed his stuff up. Mark and I raise spherical. But I went to pick him up and he had. His glasses were broken, were held together with sticky tape, and somebody ripped his shirt. Nothing horrible of violent. He just never spent the day with that many three year olds before. But what would you say that it was? I wanted to learn to read, and when it's you know, I was so ready to sit down and do is learning. But he's sort of got into it. I think it actually did him the world of good being out to let go a little bit. Joe. He was quite tight before he started Mercer and I think to survive he had to learn to be a bit wild and just let go in the teachers. They have a great system of learning in that school, and I still think it's the best school. He had a great time at primary school, and he says to this day that it's the best years of his artwork primary school. He loved every second. I'd never have to, like, hassle them to go to school. They can't wait to get there. They feel they feel her. That Bill cared for. The pastoral cat within the school is just impeccable. I can't fought it as much as I love to complain about everything, even though I'm no Karen do like a good wind is I think they I think I think they feel heard, which is important. But there's Ah, School Council, and there's representatives from each class. Both of them have been voted in school council most years. I think, cause they're quite articular and opinionated, caught image where they get their opinionated nature from my generation thing. Any clue about where they were ever So yeah, they I think they feel I think they feel good slipping into secondary school. The step. Currently, after enduring the lock down situation of being home schooled, I suddenly realised how how they learn very differently. Does incredibly self motivated on will challenge himself for every stage and take it to the next level. L B found school really quite easy. Coasted Where's Joe's Never coasted. He has always had to work hard. He done his doesn't have the natural Ah ah, academic acumen that L. B has So L. B's coasted. Andi is subsequently lazy because of it. Where was Joe is that he'll get home from school and he just sits down and diligent. He does his work, then preps for the next lesson. I mean, it's never missed one piece Homer. I didn't even know what Homo he had. Often, there's never been anything to do with me. Whereas L. B the jump from year Dr two Year six because he missed most of Year five due to look down has been brutal, the struggling with the change in the way they teach there, getting them ready to sit down a second...

...school. So now they're learning to get them ready to do, to pass these s a T s to get in secretary school to sit a test like this on he freaking him out. Quite frankly, it is. He's not enjoying that, and he's slightly apprehensive about starting your seven on the amount of self motivation or work he's going to have to dio. They wanted to sit in there and go do this. Get that? That's your task. Let's go way. Get onto the sort of process of secondary education. You've talked about all of your Children at various points, having really good experiences of education. Do you think we're the pillars that made that good? In my opinion, across the board with all of them? It's the multifaceted way of learning so that they can learn how to learn. So on DH it and having that that kind of multi ways of learning has given the ability to know how to learn themselves out. Poppy. We'll know that she's really visual, and she really that she likes the vision visualise things, draw things, touch things, do things. So she knows that's how she gets learns best because she's been through all of these SAGES in primary school. So I'll say for May, that is the thing on DH. Also, the fact that they've been given in early years. If they carry on, that's brilliant. Please, Gods let me carry on the passion for learning the want to learn that the thirst for knowledge that want to come home and find out more about topic even though they've not been asked. So it's been it's been actualised to a point where they've been given such good teaching that they're hungry to learn more on. As far as I'm concerned, if a child wants to learn, we're winning, man. If they've got a thirst for knowledge and they want to understand and they want to be inquisitive and gets the bottom of it and find out more and open it up, I mean, bloody how well, the room was full of things that he's taken to pieces on. I'll look, what do you gonna do? And I'm gonna put it back together. Is that sonar can I found a YouTube video. Oh, we could literally build a house with a huge video because that is what he could do. Anything he could do things that I've told me can't do, which I know is apparently should never, never have to do it by literally happen. He's both Yeah, I will. So they I think just that that freedom on DH confidence too Go away, learn things on DH, feel empowered enough to, like, get on that information and then impart the information to me or to others. I think that's what I'd say their education has given them that that love of learning to love, learning how they're on men of learning. Yeah, exactly. And you've talked about your older son and now your youngest son actually having anxiety about going into the secondary system. Yeah. What's concerning you about that? What do you perceive the secondary system to be all about? If I could speak frankly, box ticking,...

...getting people through, getting people out, that it doesn't feel like it feels like that the that whole passionate kind of drive for learning and how people getting Children involved and creating a space where they feel heard and loved and wanting to learn I feel like that just has dropped off the end for Joe. Luckily enough, he is such a workhorse that he's coming home and don't himself. And I got him a tutor language tutor, and we've got access to another tutto online. So if he needs any help, if it's been, I mean, obviously, things kick off in schools, and sometimes he'll go through an entire day and might have had maybe an hour and a half of education because things been kicking off infection, disco. You know, life. There's a lot of kids. There's a lot of emotional content off hormones. My worry with Joe is that once the hormones really really kick in, that he's just going to go. What is the fucking point here? What is the point like nobody cares about you. He already feels that nobody cares about them going forward like Children like him. What's there for them? What's there after? What can he do? How will he learn? Will he be able to go to university? Will his grades be good enough? Coming from the school he comes from? You know, sometimes he'll come home and he'll be crying, and we like nobody which are up in science something Do we want to just sit there and it's like frustrated and he wants to learn. But it's no geared towards the other. Kids who are clearly aren't responding well for that landing because then reacting like that, obviously they've managed to get this file education. So what has gone wrong that they all suddenly I can't all be about hormones? It I refuse to believe it's just a teenage thing. I'm flatly refuse. You talked there about that. What you describe as thie ticking of the box is culture where, yes, they are going through a process in a system that gets them. Yeah, it's a tick boxes every time they're ticking boxes, take this waltz. Take this waltz. Take this box. Doesn't matter if they bloody remember anything. That's how I feel. I feel like it's they just like that. The faculty of so much pressure to reach these markers. All the markings are exactly the same everywhere. How is that even possible? It's sitting innocently teach school on DH, then a school with six kids, innit? Induction. Gonna do perhaps here, because there's only six Children in this one teacher, and the bullet is a different culture. A deer. The other day there was 38 Children in a car because somebody trend turn I've met had to split the group outside. Howie. There's only 24 seats. How you forgiven a teach this still dome? Of course, they don't have the same opportunities. And I think that's the frustration. I think the that poor teachers air. They're going right quickly. We've got we've got a term to learn This we've got quick. We gotta get Teo wallet. No, just do it. Do it, Do it. We can file it, file it. OK, we've done that next year, right? OK, let's go on. They is like they're educators who've been had...

...their hands tied behind their back and they're told they're not to educate. That's the kind of corral on kind of. It's like forced farming. It's just it's not working, so it's not sustainable in its stone. Working, in my opinion, I get a sense of your real passion and your real frustration with right, so I'm going to move you on to something a little more positive, possibly with some lesson status. Did I swear I possibly when you've had a recent experience of locked down and I know that during that period, you really embraced home education because you have been in the business of education yourself for a long time. Yeah, you really embraced and you didn't just embrace it for your Children. You involved other Children in this real Lenny. What were the core of what you did there? With the tools you used to educate young people during the period of knockdown in school absence? I'd say my first. My first thing would be a lot of listening. That was one of themselves. I love listening on DH. Watching his small groups isn't even online. It was small groups of Children. So watching and watching, listening on DH, encouraging these Children and also letting them teach me stuff because the curriculum that my Children were learning, there's some of it. It's stuff that if I did learn that, I don't remember it. So just being there to listen and learn and kind of quite humbling, actually to have my Children explained to me the depth of the work that they're doing, I was I was shocked by some of the stuff they were doing is brilliant but really hard on me, and I can't imagine doing that with the kids in a room. I can't imagine it. So I mean, there was that. And also, I mean, I got kids moving every morning. That was my You know, my main aim was to try and get Children outside and moving on. We did a lot of workshops in building little fairy houses for the younger Children, just with stuff from that they could find in their gardens. We did a lot of that online, just trying to get people outside again, trying to get kids in a safe space where they feel like they can communicate how they're feeling about being at home on how they feel about their learning. Brilliant. You told there about two things which I thought were interesting. One was getting young people moving on the other work, talking about sort of almost sort of creative play. So let's stick with the moving first and then come back to the creative play. What? As we leave the golden to you about getting young people move Well, I feel like if you could get out of your head and into your body for a minute, your endorphins are gonna go up. You're gonna feel positive. I mean,...

...your body is built full of these amazing drugs that can release for us at any time. And exercise gets everything moving. It was those good for your body is going to your hearts Could feel much. Everything has improved by a bit of movement on physical strength gives you pride as well. If you could do things, you feel proud. And if you start your day taking a box and being like, Yes, I really got myself together this morning. Good up. I did some excited, had a shower. I'm sat here and do my work and that's what I found that the feedback I got was that the kids were super focused After they've been moving. They were really ready to sit down them physically exhausted. Then they had some breakfast, and then they sat down their desks and they were ready to go. So it's the endorphins. Get your get your happy on. Do some jumping about and get your happy on was my whole intention, and it sold. It didn't even didn't really matter what we did as long as we did it together. It was kind of it wasn't about being sports specific or, you know, doing everything perfectly. It was about getting moving and being, you know, held in a safe space and getting a heart racing, getting sweaty and, you know, and also doing it with your parents on taking the Mickey out of their parents, not being able to live press ups and things. It's also it's fun isn't E that I love Get your happy on It is really what you're saying about how you prepare your body to learn. I did a podcast with Professor Stephen Hepple, who actually talks about the physical environment, how much oxygen there is in the air, in classrooms and things. And I think it's not how we can utilise those sorts of things to learn. Is that really interesting? But going onto that sort of, I love the idea of fairy houses. What other sort project based learning were you doing with young people? Struck? Um, well, I did. I did some online art classes where I was asking people to go and find their favourite thing on, and we were trying to integrate it in a piece of work. Be using Pappy Mashaei or photography or whatever, making sculptures out of unused toys, spray painting the white and I was like, That's like Tracy Mn sent the morsel blocks Perspex, cautious to put over their beautiful art pieces. Things like that, just stuff that will give you sit down, focus and that you can really get into and something you can feel proud of it again. Those the final pieces that we did were alone bits of stuff from around the house made into one sculpture ball painted one colour because that's gonna look beautiful. And you can get whatever structure you want going on everything. Everybody's peace looked gorgeous. Nobody was like, Mine's bad because it's a ll beautiful one colour. It's all presented on the same plane and it's a lovely So those those went down really, really well. We did some cooking as well. Actually, we did some cooking, but that was only on...

...two days where I'd run over with the classes I was teaching for my job. Andi, I needed to make lunch, so you want to do what you've got to do, haven't you? In these circumstances, you get kind of. I think it's been a bit of a learning curve for all of us. The last few months, I think it certainly has. I know that you have a particular interest in outdoor learning on. Do what you can learn from nature, and I'd just love to hear a few of your thoughts on not just what you did during locked down, because I know you are heavily involved with that in normal times. So tell me a little bit about why that's so important. It's important, in my opinion, because I feel like Children are, firstly that close all the time. Everything is in this bit of vision here on that. Once you're outside, you're taken your your eyes. Khun, move this really far and that in itself opens so much up in your brain, and it really helps me to learn when you can fish in the sea further, which I'm sure your, um, professor friend would be able to explain a lot better than I can. But that's a that's a fire. I think being in nature, I feel like we have to go backwards to go forwards. I feel like we've disconnected hugely from something that could make us feel really well. And it's theirs now. Loads of reports about how did you know If you put your feet in the earth, it's really good for your body, like it's really good for your body and mind. There's been a started you have. Course it is. You know, course it feels better being outside with your feet in the earth and being stood on account of that in a nylon carpet. Of course it does. It's going to make you feel I can't believe it's been seven years of study to get that report out anyway. So, yeah, I feel like being able to be outside of being out to be free. I'm lucky enough to live in an indie city area right next to a green space so my Children couldn't go out of our back gate or say Gate is a hole in a fence into the woods and just run free. And it's having that that bit of freedom outside. I saw going to sit on the head of the back and I watched them. They'll come and they'll go and they'll climb trees and be inquisitive and build huts and just be Children, be away from the phone, be away from the television and go outside and be Children and I think a cz well, even things that L B makes bows and arrows and really enjoys making targets and digging holes and cleaning out the stream, which is what they did. The river Mizell was behind our house, of which they learned in school on the teacher. Sweet did you took infinite walking out with that? That's my house and to the old Grey Live right next to the river. They took themselves out there for the whole of one half term and cleaned the bloody traps all of the bits off the cell tower so it could flow nicely through the bit where it's really thin. And I just thought that's I didn't always agitation going clean them from the cell, turning all of their friends there that all join forces every day.

And I just go out there and shout them out and give them some cheese sandwiches that take those back out and carry on getting silver everywhere. They were just brilliant, I think just that having that association with wanting to help nature, wanting to be part of the solution for nature is off, also going to make them less likely to be a huge polluters when they get older because they're going to be connected with nature on. Hopefully it will give them that. Want to be outside and get that joy that you get from breathing deep when having a feat in the earth and looking at trees instead of traffic. I just feel like it's part of the part of all the finding your happy and test it. And I'm going back a bit in your you're thinking and you're going on vacation to this tick box system. Waited Tio, you have to get five GCS is with English and maths. And then you said that your daughter went through perils of hard work to follow that route to go down the A level root balls university. If we didn't have that as as a where Europe you are up on employer, you are a worker as a mother. What could society replace that with? If we weren't going to go through that tick box culture, how would we know what young people had to bring to give to the world of work to give to opportunity? What would you replace it with? I think that we need to look back to go forward again. I feel I feel Azzan. In early years, education seems to be working a lot better and they've structured it very differently. Whereas in the last 100 years, senior secondary school educations changed very little, much like the prison system has changed very little. It hasn't change with the times and changed with the cultural differences that are happening now with young people in with society. It hasn't kept up S o. I think that there should be more kind of positive focus on the fact that potentially further education is not for everybody. And it shouldn't be seen like a cop out. Personally, I think any skilled labourers incredible when I watch beautiful master craftsman doing their thing. I'm like, Wow, apprenticeships is so important. It's all very well and good if we're all graphic designers. But does anyone as make a cup anymore? E. I feel like we should value value things other than just academia it with an education. I feel I feel that education should be broader as you're in senior school on, you should see what you're good at, what you enjoy and be guided to pursue that you should be guided to pursue that Rather than just going, you need two sides and you get what I want to be. I want to be a promise. So what do I need to do to be a plumber, you know, But we should try and help these help these kids help themselves as opposed today. Bloody hell made mine sounds just left. It is left, but he's got...

...lots of being psychology and something else, and he doesn't know what he wants to do with his heart. He definitely doesn't know he's done that. It doesn't want any of those things. And he thinks he wants to go do something that really hands on now is sort of stuck with these ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous A levels, but won't get 1 20 courses. I was gonna have to go back and do other things just because he was good at those things at school. So he was corralled down that room where he didn't really want to do that. He sort of wants to be a promise. I'm hearing that several things from that one is that I think you're right. And identifying early is because not only do young people get to self determine They're learning a lot in early. Yeah, the measure of assessment is actually observation based skills based. Can you try to place Yes. On you go tricks of their early years development goals on. Then you shade off that they have those goals. And perhaps we could think about actually a matrix of development goals through a state of education. I'm also really interested in your You know, what you're saying about actually, how we can bring some parity to an alternative university, which is still really seen as the superior offer and everything things winning it, see who's winning at life. Oh, my God. I got into you. I personally look at it and think, Christ, you got into uni have held a gun before that. What you gonna do? What brilliant another designer the world needs. We need more peacekeepers and more kind people. We don't need more colouring in my stance at all. Is your ex husband a graphic design? I don't know why you think that he's gonna get his website. I feel I feel like I do feel that that's important, that people should feel value. They shouldn't feel like they failed because they don't want to go to university is my my point. And I think people get drop off the end with education early sinking. Fuck it. I'm never excuse me. I'm never going to get into unique. Why am I bothering? That's there's that. There's already a narrative of that between Joe's friends a lot. I was important on bunking off, never going to get into uni anyways. So it's like they've kind of given up in year seven of just on it. I'm never gonna make it. It's too high, It's too difficult, is too expensive. I can't make it, That's it. And restore Marie that kind of dropping off the end if you're losing Children, if they've lost their verve for learning because they feel undervalued and like it's not for them it there they got nothing to aspire to. Therefore they're just dropping out and misbehaving. And that's really interesting that this...

...tick bod culture has the potential to actually disengage Children as young as 12. It unites them completely, completely unites them. So Marty has been fantastic to talk to you. Lovely talking at you, Teo Teo to a conclusion. What would you say to those young people who right now in education, they don't know whether they're going to even get a chance to sit these tick boxes because we don't know what's happening with this pandemic, the processes in year 10 and 11 that they've bean through. They may not even get to conclude or a level. What passionate Marty advice are you going to give to those young people nearing the end of their educational journey? Take a breath or gonna be fine, Be kind to yourself and be kind to other people. Because if we're all kind, everything will be okay in the end. And don't beat yourself up on this box ticking. You're gonna be okay. We are all OK. There's work for everybody. If we all find what we want to do and how we want to do it, it's a ll gonna be okay. Thank you, Marcy. You are a whirlwind. And I'm sure the Children are absolutely grateful for the lock down education as there were many others keep educating, keep mothering. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. It's been lovely. Thank you for listening to this episode of Third Millennium education. I'd like to know what has been your biggest takeaway from this conversation. If you did enjoy this episode, do hit the subscribe button to continue to receive future episodes. If you would like to be interviewed or you know somebody who would be good to interview, please also get in touch. I hope you'll join me on the next episode, and together we can carry on the conversation to ensure that we can best meet the needs of Third Millennium Learners employers in the country. Thank you again and see you on the next episode.

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