Third Millennium Education
Third Millennium Education

Episode 8 · 1 year ago

Shad Moarif, Founder and Developer of Karismath and KarisEnglish


Shad Moarif is the Founder-Developer, Karismath and KarisEnglish.

"Returning the loan is a moral and spiritual need, the primary goal because regaining back their assets is like regaining something priceless.”

Time Stamp:

[1:30] Shad Moarif’s education journey

[2:45] Shad’s point of view on how different profession view mathematics

[5:23] Shad’s thoughts on well-structured education systems

[7:59] Challenges Shad met on his teaching journey in Pakistan

[9:26] Shad’s plan on teachers in Pakistan

[12:39] How did Shad armored teachers at rural areas in Pakistan with teaching skills

[17:49] How Shad utilised knowledge and understanding in teaching Maths teachers in Pakistan?

[19:26] How Shad used visualisation in teaching maths

[23:52] Creating separate components in maths learning

[27:35] How are teachers adapting visualisation method with other subjects

[31:08] Shad’s future educational plans in Pakistan

Links:To connect with Zenna Hopson go to 

I'm delighted to be hosting this podcast. Third Millennium Education. It's a collection of thoughts and inspirations of stakeholders within education. What is education for? On who is it serving? This's a podcast exploring state mandated education, its relevance impact and how it can best meet the needs of third millennium learners. Employers on the country. My interview. Exciting people who have had direct experience of education, whether you are a parent, training to be a teacher, a policymaker, an academic education innovator, nobody working attack. There will be something for you. I'm your host. Zanna hopes I'm delighted to welcome Shout here to be with me today. He is the founder and entrepreneur behind Kari's math on DH. He has worked in education, is an educationist three years moving from psychology to English to mass shut, and I have known each other for quite a few years now. Ah, he's an education list who has a passion for transforming the way that young people learn on really unpick ing. What motivates them to learn on what are the best learning tools that we can give them on? He has a broad range of education experience globally. Shut your so welcome. Thank you for joining May aunt to kick us off. Just talk me through a bit of your education experience. Well, it goes back a long ways. I started, I was drawn into education. I didn't choose it. And so it goes back to working with kids were learning difficulties. Some of them were mentally challenged or otherwise, and it just built up from bed as I got involved in their lives in the educational experiences also started to realise that a lot of it was connected with the family with parents and benign would sit and have sessions of parents. I realised it was connected with well, a lot of it with the entire society was cooling systems. And that's when I got drawn into it literally into a world which I had known in the sense that never quite understood. And that's what. But being this field of education, and since then my focus has bean with starting with Children with learning difficulties, language, learning difficulties and just built up from their mathematics and lose. Of course, my passion the most enduring one. So I just stayed with that and went on to switch. My role is a psychologist and a specialist on math, language learning and then went on to focusing on mathematics. So that's where I stand now. You made an interesting transition from language to mass on DH. Combined those skills, Yes, it wass it, wass Ah, it was it had to do. I think what I learned from that turned out to be an interesting experience. Because, you know, people have developed very...

...implicit perspectives off what math is all about. They're all different. You know, a chartered accountant whenever a different take on her math should be taught compared to an astronaut. So a chemical engineer and architect, soft bit the all emphasise different aspects. And these perspective that moulded this form and content of school math and teacher, especially males, they're docked. I want to be perspective, you know, one of the astronaut wannabe engineer, wannabe architect, software developer, whatever the school map, how it should be taught has been influenced. Well, actually, spiel pulled in all directions to become a very shapeless, incomprehensible mask. Trying to be a one fits all to everything. So you know what I've been trying to do with math is drawn from experience and understanding of how English language models have developed for the past 40 years. And that's what I was into. And I learned a lot. You know, they do to thinks English language programmes. They actually approximate how Children's minds learn language. Did they actually segment and sequence different components of language learning in different silos? You know, like reading, writing, spelling, vocabulary, God preach, Yeah, yeah, And the silos are all linked first with just one simple pipe and then with an increasing number of pipes until they're all working, you know in unison, liken orchestras and ebb and flow. So that gets established very early from sounding out letters, too, to making words and speaking and according all that. So that's why today, after 30 years, we have very sophisticated models and programmes for teaching English language. But the foundations of developing any English language teaching programme have bean laid so technology and imagination, but they combine to create interesting, attractive versions for teaching English language. They they won't take the imaginative, innovative leaps from very, very far from foundations. And that's not what's happened with Mac. And that's what I've been trying to do build those very basic foundational structure from which we can draw the leap to make a leap into more imaginative. But one has to go. That's fascinating, and I want to come back to that. But before we get into the detail of maths, I just like to hear a bit from you on a more general, its point of view about your thoughts of education, because I know that you've worked in education. I know that you've worked in England and a lot in Pakistan, and I believe you've also worked in other countries. You know, it's just I like to hear from you. What do you think is working really well in the education systems that you see the state's, whichever country they're in investing in? Oh, that's a very difficult question for me to answer, especially now that I'm focusing more...

...on a very specific set of population. I think what works most is Ah, teachers were coming in. Now present generation of teacher. They have a far better need understanding for how education must lock itself off, use keys and locks to connect how minds learn and the templates, the educational materials or the course where that we create that must lock into her mind, and I think this is a growing need and offend need and a lot of young people coming into education with degrees and education off sexual experiences and education. They are wanting to get into this area more, and as a result, when they do some work at the amount of effort there putting in his far less. But the returns of far greater because they developed the right kind of tools and materials, and I include myself among them. But I think that's a population that's trying to push the boundaries, and they're doing really. And I think that they have far greater promise because what has worked in the past in education, in English, a lot of things have started to work because they did just that English language. They've done that in science, and they've done that with geography, very difficult to do with history because they're multiple viewpoints that they're creates new sort of dilemmas. But they're working through these areas which are very complicated. So the success is very difficult to measure because there are no standardised ways of measuring success. It's a very subjective thing. It depends on who's looking at education, Whether it's policy makers or educators or teachers and forever, it's kind of hard to sort of pin that down. That's really interesting. So you think the things that are working is actually the young teachers that are coming in, who understand that it's not just what you learn, it's how you learn and you have to marry the two of those together on the other thing I'm hearing, which I'm going to come back to on. I really want to pick up on this for the meat of our conversation is how you developed those foundations for learning in maths. But before we get there, tell me what's frustrating you? What frustrates you about the work you do in Pakistan and education? Actually, is it for the first time? I'm not experiencing frustration, and that is a very you know. That's so counterintuitive. I'm working with a population of teachers who who seemed to know a lot of things about education, but they don't know that, but they don't really understand much. So I mean in the sense that they can't explain the reasoning behind a lot of what they say and do, And I've created a map programme that helps teachers and parents understand what they know and no what they understand.

So But the whole idea is to get them to understand or grasp benefits of reasoning so that you can defend, clarify an advance, an argument without getting into a dark fact. That's really basically the idea. And so so tell us what we're doing. We've got beaches in India. Sorry. Tell us what you're doing with teachers in India and no, not in India. In Pakistan. Sorry. So what I'm doing is introducing mathematics as a means is a tool to pry open, uh, hidden sort of reserves off thinking that have been crushed the centuries. In a sense, I'm trying to get back to finding the scent. I use the word I don't know if you honest Hemingway when he used when he wrote the snows of Kilimanjaro, it starts off with this leopard. The carcass off a leopard found near the summit off Mount Kilimanjaro. 19,000 ft, tallest mountain in Africa. On top of that, there's this carcass off a leopard. And and so he asked this question right at the beginning of the bull before in the book book begins. How can one explain what the Leopard was seeking at that altitude? Now the lot of allegory, a lot of sort of things people take out of that. It's a piece of literature. But what I took out a bit Waas was suggested by Hemingway is that the leopard had simply lost its scent. It lovingly left Hey, sent. Yes, it started chasing up the wrong scent and landed up somewhere. It was doomed to die. And you know, I see that as something that we as a people, as Muslims of dumb for centuries we lost our scent and now is the question is, it's it's It's a struggle to restore fine or start to even recognise the scent that we lost. And so I'm trying to do that with mathematics, and it's a very rejuvenating experience for me and also, I think, for the teachers, because when they look at things that they understand. Finally, the kind of ecstasy in the joy and excitement of the field opens up something that for them feels very new. And it's in that opening in that light that's entering through very tiny cracks, that I see a lot of joy and hope and a feeling that something is starting to toe. Finally. And that's what I'm getting in my experience with teacher. Then it all has to do with teaching them how to understand math and what is mathematics?...

A lot of it has to do with content installing ah, body of content knowledge and that was the first thing I did. They went through 18 tests very every week that to do tests on mathematics, understanding, mathematics, great 12 great three great fall, all of it. And they had to watch the videos and as the sad through the tests, and started to understand math from perspective that they never imagined existed. Something lit up. And that light is what we're pursuing. So talk me through that how you gave them that light? What is it that you think that they presumably as teachers, they were taught how to teach math when they went to teacher training college there probably reasonably good at maths because they've ended up his math teachers. What is it? What is it that you reveal when you reveal that light? First of all, none of the wonder teacher training colleges, these air all villages small back there. No teacher training colleges then know where trains, teachers. A lot of them went to school on their own, and a lot of them went even colleges, local colleges. And so there's not much that really grasped. But they did learn a few things, so to some extent they have trained minds. But there's none of that. It's like starting the clean, clean slate and methods actually amazing, because there's a purity of thinking in their heads and their minds in the heart that soaks up things like a desert, a barren desert and water's coming in Things is sprouting. So you know, I'm working with an organisation which offers Orly interest free loans, not to understand, to answer your question. It's a little complicated because talking about light and all these are not easy things to explain. So I'm working with this organisation. Their office interest free loads, OK tedi rural entrepreneurs, independent skilled workers. They want to get the families out of dead tour. They want to fix a leaking roof, and these are all in the villages rural towns and but this organisation also manages 300 rural primary schools over all owned by the government. So their claim to fame is that when poor folks seek an interest free loan, the money is always waiting, is always returned. I just want to switch off this male because it keeps after turned this off. Go you you pinging when you get mail? Yeah, it goes cling like that And besides the thing and I gave a distracted So it's very counter in tow, intuitive to imagine why the money's...

...always returned and full 90%. So given that they're living just above the poverty line. So how does one explain? And this was one of the riddles for me, and when I was explained, the reason something lit up inside be because it was its costuming like this in when they take loans to reconstruct a roof that's about to form. With that, the act of returning the loan helps them regain their self respect. That's amazing. The assets that the pledge against the loans, our self dignity and self respect, not the little cottage and land in which it is built is just that. So if they don't return the loan, they'd be trading the true assets. You know, the baby to be like selling their souls, so to stop the roof from falling is a is a earthly, worldly need. It can be addressed with money, but it's a short term object. Returning the loan is a moral and spiritual need. The primary goal because regaining back their assets, it's like regaining something. Prices is it was something that hit me so hard it wass. If it was the other way around, they would be very few lawns that would be returned. So these loans I inspiring the community because at one level, that bridge the connexion between two between who they truly are and what they want to become. At another level, they revitalised their self identity like this is Julio, so they're all regular. People want to better their lives. But when they see education that now seeing it in a new damage, you know it's taking on a new meaning. Knowledge is not alone, but it has given and parents see their school going. Children receive a new new outfit that adds value to there in a long term assets which is, you know, dignity, identity, whatever. So I'm seeing education from similar perspectives, and when I started to do that, it started tow. It started to click because they find it easier to embrace an education that offers self betterment. First and foremost, lively hoods are byproduct or not to go so that Children would be good jobs. We get good jobs of education, gets them to become better humans. That's rural folks, very unlike the urban cousins were there, you know, overripe minds of So they understand this and they believe in it. And which makes my task which easier Because you know what? You Sorry. Sorry how you utilise that knowledge and understanding that this is actually an asset transaction. How you utilise that in the teaching of maths in...

Pakistan and enabling teaching the teachers in Pakistan. Actually, it's actually very easy because there's a cast of the hunger is a quest for betterment, and that's an end. It's his question. How wide is from the perspective that I was speaking, learning mathematics of incubates, some very important attributes and traits and skills, which is what I emphasised. And it helps us grow better than before, like just like a plant. And by better I mean, it makes us feel better. Think better, do better behave better, produce better, relate to each other's better and solve problems better than we could before. And if I can show that that's what they're doing as they learn. And as we engage all these better things side to flow extremes to join up with something in ask, which in turn flows into this ocean off self for consciousness, whatever I know sound like yoga, meditation? Why not? I mean against this backdrop of impoverished, impoverished rural minds where farmers and villages are vulnerable to onslaughts, climate, state flats, dropped droughts, earthquakes, education off the right kind can be actually very, very healing. And that's what I'm discovery so enough that education can be healing your I'm on a practical level, being a practical soul as well. How is your mathematical training and your mathematical teacher training and therefore the teaching of maths different to the way that I learned to do fractions? What's what's the new thing that you're bringing in the way that we teach fractions for an example? There's a lot of things but everything else because his visualisation, um, I think I was among the first in this area. I remember presenting a huge body of mathematical visualisations that had created at the national conference in Chicago. That was in 2006 at I think you saw one of the mirrors on algebra. Yeah, you remember that that was represented. You know, after I finished my presentation, I thought, you know, there it is, and I had thought it's quite riveted, but at the last one was the one of algebra. And when I finished, I said, Thank you, the old rose up and gave me a standing ovation. That was in 2006, and then I said, Wait a minute on my own, something like what cheques going on. And so that's when I started saying, I think I'm going to go in for Ritual is ations. So what happened was that, you know, I don't know. How do I start? It is a very essential component off teaching mathematics because you have to not a draw, you know, on paper and...

...bored and things. But the word draw, you know, is a nice amazing. The word joys of very interesting were to draw water from a well to draw water from a well to draw inferences and conclusions to draw patterns and pictures. It's a bit like the word move. If you think of the word move to make a move, when a chess player or a strategic plan or a politician makes a move, is thinking that's in the going on in the mind that produces the physical act that the movement is not of a chess. He's going from one to the other is the thinking behind is the same thing with Troy. So when we visualise anything, we proceed to draw it. On paper, the lines can be a minimal suggestion off a stick door and what we recognise, why we recognise it. Because we've already got an inner vision of a real door to connect with the stick dog. So is the same. Withdrawing a mathematical concept we have to draw on our inner vision off that concept to visualise it and then reproduce it. Pacho Open soon. Now more teachers draw shapes and things, but the individualisation of a mathematical concept is a function of how well and how deeply the concept is understood. And if you don't understand the concept really well, you're in. If you know there's a saying. Bath cases, bad cases make bad laws the same thing with interest. Visualisation. If your concert, if you understanding of mathematics, is it requires a lot to be to be satisfactory, that your inner visualisations who wouldn't be floored and when you project it and draw it will come out with. I can just recognise right away when I see a visualisation of a math MK mathematical concept and I can see where it's all wrong, the whole thinking behind it, a draw. So I think the secret is just that, a mathematical concept of the function of how well and how deeply the concept is understood. And if you're planning on extending a mathematical concepts safe from fractions to decimals, the initial visualisations have to remain pedagogical Lee consistent. Yeah, but actually the learner's draw upon a conceptual understanding and connected with its extended version in a logical way, without things breaking up and jarring and becoming something else. And so I think that's really what is happening, that the teachers math concepts are more feet in the filled with gaps and conceptual, procedural and operational misunderstandings, lacking consistency and pedagogical continuity. And so they're visualisations will reflect it. It's a scatter off many, many things. And so and I absolutely still, Khun, see your piece in the test tube. When I think about doing my equations, I still...

...see your piece in the test tube in my mind. So I completely understand the importance on I like that drawing it in because that's now what I do in my mind's eye. Andi, you've started to go back to this issue off. I think I love the word masses to Is Mafia eaten? You broke down for us earlier. That really that the thinking that's gone into how you break down the teaching of literacy. So you you talked about, sort of, you know, then sounding out the phonics, the reading, that comprehension, the crafting of the letters. Those platforms seem quite clear on things that I think most educators would understand What would be your equivalents in math? Um, the whole idea of creating those separate components is, too, and in English language, I worked with Jean Shaw, who was the person who wrote the five stages of language ofthe English lang. The five stages reading. She was the She's the one who started this entire movement on How do you create language learning programme. Since I worked with the guru of Cell, she was in the White House as adviser to English language literacy. So are coming back to your question. What I learned was that when you break things down in little silos and categorisation of components behind it, you have to have some idea of level. Since stages which have to do with the structure of the language itself, the language problem within itself has its own inner architecture. So does mathematics. Now enough students minds as they fall from five years, six years, seven years. They also grow in complexity and its ability to understand complexity. So it's very important to break things and two stages into levels and bring in what of a components fit and at what level at each stage. So that's what can be done. If you use visual mediation, it can't be done if you don't use special mutation because of BMS visual mediation. I've got to it's It's what we do and we watch a silent will be, you know, Oh, comic strip that there, if you were the visuals awoke meaning directly. So we use the visuals to read the narrative you know, we have to make sure that what does that those visual draw upon our inner analogies that are mathematically sound, that they did with Christmas, thanks years to develop. But if you've got that Connexion made, then you move on to thinking about it in terms of well, where our levels of simplicity, how do they become complex? And that gets revealed in the animations in the visual isation.

That's some visualisation was very easy to Paul, but if you skip what comes afterwards and go to the next visualisation, you won't understand. So there you have it. You can now start to cut into different, very, very tiny, incremental steps, and the whole idea is to produce something that's incremental, that sequence shoe that's developmental. And that's even remedial in its approach. And all those things are very close to the way the mind learns. And so, in teaching these teachers to really be able to teach and communicate maths, and for young people to be able to visualise that there's been a real cross filtration to the rest of their learning on the rest of their subjects and the way that they're going to approach learning thereafter or huge one. My God, nobody asked that question. Yeah, it's Hugh, you know, because it all has to go. It goes back to meaning, making you know there's this meaning making impulse that we all have is human. And and the three words in the English language the most high frequency words among the most high piquancy words a tree. But I think that we use every day. I mean, you'd be amazed how often you're using its inner. They were, think, know, And me, you know, like do you know? I know. I don't know that. How do you know? What do you know? I think so. I think that I think I know. What do you think? Oh, what makes you think or what do you mean? I mean you mean you mean what I mean that Oh, that doesn't mean that it means everything to me. This means, you know, it is amazing And this whole thing about meaning making checking, testing affirming, validating once knowledge and understanding misery. Another person's. This were meaning making animals. That's what makes a social so teenage, constantly judging each other in terms of our smart, confident, knowledgeable. There And although I know this, no, I don't think that's true. The thing about looking for truth now one of the biggest challenge is developing a primary math course. We're like mathematics. Karishma wants to communicate me. Math has to mean something to the Learned, which is very common at any of the biggest mistake that people have been making is to look for meaning by association in that, like there's a lot of math that goes into designing furniture. Did you know that Yoon in the formation of clouds and in mobile phones you know, that's the last thing learners want to, especially learners who don't like math and then stopped liking furniture to that and even cloud formations they hated. The microbes got math it now so they don't need it. Always half are removed there from how the mind things and lands that they're just not sort of dipped into that. The meaning and math has to recite insight.

It's logical connexions. The learner's mind hops, skips and jumps from one stone to another, and before long they realise that cross the stream. Now that's an experience that would make sense to them otherwise, why they would you engage in hopping, skipping and jumping. It's not getting you anywhere, you know, so that has all connected with making sense draw upon sense. Nick relies heavily on reasoning, influential thinking, and it's all here. It's like platter and mathematics. So it's no more about becoming an astronaut. Engineers about how does it my great this way think into an act other areas And I know that, people told me, is a darts that you know, and made a huge difference. My life and what I do every day and everything. I've got coordinators in this rural area. They said that, you know, you know, our life exchanged. I talked differently at home. I talk, so that's really what makes the difference. I don't know if I'm making a reason. Yeah, you're absolutely making sense. And so how long it is Are you going to be working in Pakistan developing and training these teachers? How long have you been there? How are you going to be staying there working with them? You know it's being almost a year and you know it. I'm chasing a puzzle and I think I have the answer to the puzzle, which is why I can't say how long I'll be working. I'll be working as long as I find. And I think I'm beginning to see the outlines off something that is was steering it to me for years. And I know it's so atypical is so obvious. It happens all the time. So I want to share that with user, you know, because I always used to wonder what makes people like ourselves. You know, you and me and others become ecstatic, radiant. When we see our students ties light up with new insight, you know, or we'll go in. This only discovered they're not stupid after all. Xena, you know this better than anyone else either. Their joys. I mean, I can understand that they're very happy. But why do they make us fields related? And I was used to ask myself that how and why is this experience of joy so priceless? It's worth way more than money, which is why we don't end up earning any money educators. So now this is true for every teacher at heart, no matter what she teaches, where when, huh? It don't matter whether she's teaching through the old chalk and talk, wrote to learn way or using new conceptual ways of understanding things. It doesn't matter. All these tunes have to sit through exams. Every teacher in every school keeps Annan, Candace and focus on student exams and results. They do anything to get their kids, to pass them, to do well to get top schools any, well, anything. I mean,... with the jump off the bridge? No, but not quite that. But, you know, it triggered off something in my head. I said, What if you know there's this? What if world parallel universe? I know that I live in it. What if this what of that? And I'm pretty sure you do, too, So I didn't thought Experiment, I said, What if What if teachers were told to prepare the students for a final exam or an end of tell? Examine what if exam or test contained math questions, the likes of which then never seen before? Never. And what if they were told that student success and those exams wouldn't would reflect their own success and actually determine their career prospects? And what if I made these incredulous teachers so curious they would want to know what is this exam tests that What could it look like now? What I know. And there's compelling evidence globally the teachers teach to get this tune. Suppose the math exams so they'll have to teach. You know two things about it, so it's what they do. But this time they have to teach differently, which is what I drank, invented when they see this totally new thing is a her. And then I said, Wait a minute, let me tell you how you understand this. And then I put them through a knowledge installation phase. And then when they sent for tests which are all exactly the type of tests that they saw the first time, the so it Siri's of tests one after the other is all ritual assault testing the ability to understand testing the logic and reasoning and testing the ability toe operate numbers, quick skill and efficiency and speed. Now you get it so that teaching practises are changing literally Zeller at speeds you can't imagine that's what I'm doing. That is just fantastic. And I love that really description off the sense we get that absolute buzz you get when somebody's got it on what I'm really looking forward. Teo is coming back and talking to you to see the impact this has had on the young learners Once the teachers have really got it. But Sharon, thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you on DH. Very good luck with the work that you're doing. Thank you. Thanks very much. I'll need it. Thank you so much for having me for this nice place. Thank you for listening to this episode of Third Millennium Education. I'd like to know what has been your biggest takeaway from this conversation. If you did enjoy this episode, do hit the subscribe button to continue to receive...

...future episodes. If you would like to be interviewed or you know somebody who would be good to interview, please also get in touch. I hope you'll join me on the next episode. And together we can carry on the conversation to ensure that we can best meet the needs of Third Millennium Learners employers in the country. Thank you again and see you on the next episode.

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