Third Millennium Education
Third Millennium Education

Episode 3 · 1 year ago

Professor Stephen Heppell, Expert In Learning Environments


In this episode, Professor Stephen Heppell will be discussing about his passions in education and his thoughts on political interference on educations.

“There are 2.2 billion children in the world, and about half have almost no education at all. And the other half of the 1 billion have pretty miserable experiences and bullying. The quarter left, actually in school enjoying it, typically, we fail about half of them, so education isn't doing all that good.”

“As you know education ain't perfect. And it could be better, but it's still got lovely bits in it. But if I look at Pisa, they're talking about collaborative problem solving, it's coming back, education goes in cycles”

“But the little things make a big difference. So people talk a lot about what we need to do to make education better? And how do we get today's generation of children to pay more attention and blah, blah, blah, it's never the children.”

Time Stamps:

[1:38] Stephen’s highlights and lowlights of passion in education.

[4:20] Stephen’s thoughts and examples of current education methods.

[10:34] Stephen’s thoughts on how education in the UK now inspires young people to learn.

[21:43] Stephen’s thoughts about the contents and pedagogy taught at schools.

[28:00] Stephen’s thoughts on political interference on education.

[33:36] Stephen’s way of assessing learning.

[39:43] Stephen’s thoughts on applying technology in learning.

[44:21] Advice to ensure children with the least advantage in getting the most out of a school based system.

[48:51] Stephen’s choice of currency to give children when they leave school.


To connect with Zenna Hopson go to

I'm delighted to be hosting this podcast. Third Millennium Education. It's a collection of thoughts and inspirations of stakeholders within education. What is education for? On who is it serving? This's a podcast exploring state mandated education, its relevance impact and how it can best meet the needs of third millennium learners. Employers on the country. My interview. Exciting people who have had direct experience of education, Whether you are a parent, training to be a teacher, a policy maker and academic education innovator, nobody working attack. There will be something for you. I'm your host, Zanna hopes with me today is Professor Stephen Hepple, who is a pioneer in education and technology. He's worked in education for Well, let's say, decades many, many years on DH does really interesting stuff around. Not only education but education environments and the impact that that has on learning. He is really a professor of all things learning, and I'm delighted to welcome him today. So welcome to the podcast. Well, thanks very much. Trying to reload for that incident. I have been a professor 31 years, so I go back, Teo a very long time. Although I have to say I drive an old an old Austin. 7. 19. 31,007. There were some kids looking at it the other day and asked me if I'd bought a new one. But not that old. Oh, kids, Amazing. They are just so sweet. Tell me more about your education experience. Talk me through your passions in education. What you've done, you highlights your low lights. Gosh, Well, yeah, That's, um it'll only take a couple of years the run through the list of that stupid quick version. So I started beating in East London being a 14 to 18 boys school about the crepe Kray brothers era. You know, it was a lot. It was a lively and lovely place to be adorable community if you were there for them. 100% labour there for you, 100%. And I absolutely loved it and went on from there to Basildon Essex and then down the South London and enjoyed every single minute. But I've been lucky enough as a as an undergraduate to play around with computers a bit. Now we were listening to this. Well, imagine something that's on your desktop. But these were computers like it was a room you walked into the computer with for the hematoma and a bit, but because I had Bean had learned how to programme them for up for a project that was doing so when people started thinking maybe we should have computers in schools. There was a bit of a shortage of people who hate in schools and being knew about computers. So I got sort of dragooned off into the government project. My collection is education programme. I hope you see that that was the most the most family had his enormous budget and their accountability. It's all fantastic, decided Well, there'll be a long time ago. I was in the early 18 and I had a I had to write a side of April and say, Well, I've talked to a lot of schools, you know, and they seem to enjoy. I had so much equipment and a lorry load of literally driving around in. This is a two time Laurie and I remember one night parking outside of whatever's in that, doing this doing sort of workshop off the workshop off the work job was it was fun, but they have you on the road centre. Had I was gonna snag it into this travel lodge type of their went into a collapse. Cicely caught up in the morning to find that left the back of the lorry wide open with all this massive equipment inside, you know that not a single item withdrawn because nobody knew what anybody out there, you know? So in those days, everything was everything was new, you know, it was a lot of fun. So you don't think they could see pretty early? Because everybody good, the kids plus technology could do incredible things. And really, that's being the rest of the life of me. I think I say often that if you ask kids to do something that surprises them, that astonish you right back with how well they do it now, let's be the last 30 plus years of my life, really being being astonished by Children and tryingto trying to give them something they can't do way could ever find that. Fantastic. Give me your thoughts on what you feel is working really well. What I'm passionate about is the kind of state mandated education you know, our government governments around the world. So you must be educated. You must go to school. That's the age range that really fascinates. May I want you thinks working well in that where do you see really good examples of things they're going Well, I think, you know, foolish to say there was much that was working well, but I mean, having just watched my four year old granddaughter, who lives with me going off for her first day at school and looking at the I mean, she was in my bed at 5. 30 this morning with her uniform on and ready to go. So, you...

...know, school still has that wonderful on the police, seductive. I'm gonna be a big girl now, attraction to it, you know? And you know, I love my time teaching and teachers are some of the most ingenious people in the world. I think they look at the way with which they've coped with covert and other wth other things, that schools will be flooded in two years by climate change blown down two years after that by hurricanes. I'll cope with all that. They're wonderful at it. So, you know, level that. But on the other hand, to going two billion Children in the world on behalf of them have almost no education at all, and on the other half of the one billion that do for about half of them. It's a pretty miserable experience and bullying or whatever. I've come back to that in a million on then. You know, the court of other left, actually in school enjoying it. Typically, we fail about half of them, you know, So interrogation isn't doing all that good at the moment. And I'm lucky enough to do. I do learning with the British Olympic team, I do learning for the England rugby squad and so on. So, like enough to do learning with some interesting groups of people on one of the things you learn from them is the aggregation of marginal Gettings. Every little detail matters, and I think one of the things we're not done well enough in school is to look at every detail carefully, so we'll come back to that in them in a moment. I'll illustrate that. But what works? Well, he's pretty clear, I think, and we did a lovely survey in the nineties off people's best learning experiences on. We interviewed thousands of people you know, and they also pretty much the same thing. They're top 10 things where they did something with others. So we always have been gay ress activity. They were doing something rather than reading or absorbing something and actually doing something actively what they were doing that I thought was difficult. Nobody thought that bet floating experience. We was doing something easy. It was almost always and adult around to steer them, but not the dominate them to sort of stay well, Have you thought about this? You know, rather than now, next, turn to page 27. You know, they're the adult Was there to help them be more efficient learners more than anything. But most of all, they had a sense of real programmes. They felt they were making thoughts in the literature. People got upset of referencing their only criteria or normative referencing. Exited referencing is I feel I'm making progress. It's myself on DH. I think all of us, when we get that feeling, it is exhilarating. I'm trying to learn to play the bass guitar the moment Don't laugh. I foolishly I thought go learn the guitar basically tells Give me easy Tio two strings less than a normal get up. But it turns out to be more difficult. But who knew? You know, I have never tried. Yeah, well, we've got We've got music in our family or we'll lead with my second cousin. We keep moving the who You know how I feel. I feel I'm gonna make it effort at some point. Now is nearly two later. Better kick a better get on here. But, you know, with those with those people's best learning experience, the thing they all reported which I think is lovely is that the adults that were leading them And sometimes it was a teacher occasionally was a coach or a parent or a vicar even. But, you know, the person that was leading helping them with their learning was a bit eccentric, but they were crazy. They were passionate about poetry. They they really, really, really cared about physics or, you know, in the needy could cash it by. They come running over and say, That's really interesting. Tell me about the physics. You know, you're lying there in a pool of blood, you know, and I think people remember the passion and the eccentricity. That's a true mike, my youngest son. We were just reminiscing about it the other day. On that, the only teacher who ever really came inspired about was a guy called Mr Burnell who wonder he came home and said, Mr Burnell threw a bag of bricks at me. And as a mother, I'm about to go into the school and complain on DH. Hey, learned more about physics in that day than he probably did in the rest of his learning. Absolutely so you know. So we know what works. You know. It's people doing things together. It's people doing things, you know, led by slightly crazy. People are passionate about their A subject and about learning. And then, you know, doing hard things are you know that you need knowledge and there's not much. There's not much you can do it. It's not the sixties. You can't just go and sit in a tree and imagine, you know you need a you need to know about the tree before you sit on the wrong branch. You know there's this knowledge to be had, and then you've got to apply their knowledge and do something with it. You know, I think if you if you hang on to all that and so well, what have we lost? And when It's clear that in recent years we've lost, you know, the ability to collaborate. We've lost the coursework, we've lost the shared projects. We've lost the difficult things we've lost, the problem solving, really. We've probably done the lot better people...

...absorbing knowledge, but you've got to do something with the knowledge, and I think that's a bit of a missing thing. But look, a pizza. You know, they're talking about collaborative problem solving. It's coming back. So this stuff all goes in cycles. I think so, Yeah, That's a sort of a slightly rambling stream of conscience. This answer feel perfectly reasonable question. But you know, education ain't perfect and it's and it could be better, but it's still got lovely bits in it. So looking at those those lovely bits, those bits where we are really inspiring young people to learn, how well do you think? Let's just look at the UK for for the moment, but I think it's a question that probably goes wider. How well do you think our current education process is actually doing those things that are so important. So if we were to ask those people graduates now you've just been through the fiasco of their success or a level results. Do you think they'd say they'd be able to say the same things about what really ignited them in their learning? Yeah, I think they would. But they might not be talking about this. Who and you know, there's a lot of learning as we've seen way when he was a lot of learning that goes on elsewhere in sports clubs and families and in churches, you know, in communities, you know, being I've been enjoying the social media feed from people saying when that kid hasn't done any of the work of a set for him by the school, on the other hand, have learned to replant the bathroom. You know he's only 12 so we think that's a bit of wind, and I'm like two granddaughters here. You know, the six year old level through the hallway sailing, confident that's supposed to do now to live 13 or 14. So you know, she spent a lot of time on the water. You take those boxes and she can sail on race and windsurfing and stand up paddleboarding. It's I mean, it's clear. But if you ask them about their learning in the last six months, she tell you excitedly about all the things you learn in the serpent guards she's collected. But none of them were in school, where they so and the learning is still seductive and lovely. Look, I'll give you a really nice example, really, that sort of detail. So Children in schools, you know, coming up the lunchtime were often getting a bit off the page, you know, getting a little bit truculent or, you know, they're sort of their attention is wandering looking around all over the place on DH. I think for a lot of people watching that from Ofsted or wherever, you know, they see Children who need to be managed better. All they see, what I see is the physical environment and its impact on men, and we've been looking at the levels off all the things that impact on your brain. Eso We've been looking at the 02 light level noise TVO seas, which are the sort of smelly things that pagan gives off. When you paint a room, you noble way when you spray polish or whatever we've been looking at. Micro particulate. So we've been looking at humidity, Andi, everything, really, that impacts on your brain. And one of the things we found is that classrooms air really bad places for brains. The if you burn 30 kids in the room and shut the door, the CO two level before even the first hour is gone, we'll have gone over 1000 parts per million, which is the point of which your brain starts to behave less well than it should do if it was in the best environment. So most kids arrive in school. They sit down in the class pretty sharp for registration. But within a half an hour, that is all downhill all the way in earned circles. So too, has come because they're breathing. You know, the kids are sucking in all this is really the CO two. So one of the things we do to fix that is to say to the kids, he's your environment. Have a look at what it's doing to you and I was in a school local to here just a year or so back or just nine months back, and we were saying that the kids who were the kids were fidgeting and a bit off the page. Coming up the lunch on their appointed into one corner. The other boys were looking a bit sheepish, You know, on whom the kids who were really so into their word that you won't even stop when the man has come to collect you. At the end of the day, we're all pointed to another law. Well, let's measure the room in those two places. Of course, the kids that were all bright eyed and bushy tailed a city and bright lights, ventilation. The windows were those Robbie Shield and galvanised crystal windows. You know, the school's all had because they lied like mad. So the kids are lots of fresh air coming in, you know, lots of good sunlight and the kids in the back corner. I think the co two levels up over 4000 parts per million, and you know, I would've would've been I mean, nobody would listen. We've seen over 7.5 1000 parts per million. I mean, particularly, examination room is ironic, clean, and where you think kids, you want your kids to be the best they could be. But you put 100 kids in the sports hall and shut the door. You know me. I mean, teachers listening to this. Well, remember, in vigil waiting 20 minutes into the exam, you have to stand up,...

...walk around the room because you fall asleep. I remember it. I've done it. And I'm not really knotting dog feeling. You think because the room is like a swimming pool is filling up with seal to on DH against you. So you stand up on your head, comes out of the out of the pool, so to speak, and you walk around. The poor kids of the desk are literally drowning, drowning in their own emissions. You know, it's all pretty hideous. So one of the things we do to fix that is say to the kids, right? How are we going to fix that? And kids are smart, so they will say we know about photosynthesis. Bring implant. So how many plants beginning needs so that we have a look at dear old NASA because NASA going to Mars and a lot of oxygen on Mars. So you don't waste what you take a natural thoughtfully build a list of the best plants that egg to Mars, and they turned out to be the best plants for having me classroom as well. There's stuff everybody knows spider plants and, you know, hello there is and things like that. You know, one plant poke. It turns the whole thing around and certainly win after Alexander is having the inspirational head over in that job. I was doing that as part of the gym, schools or union. Oh, well, they put him in 162 classrooms on DH. You know, academic performance went up, fidgeting, went down a DHD all but disappeared. You know, kids who have bean kids who have Bean labelled as having an attention deficit. You know, given Ritalin, there's nothing wrong with the little Blighter is you know, they were just in the room. There was just no good for their brains. So they you know, the little details really matter. But of course, what you get from all this is you get meta cognition. You get kids who are thinking about how could we do are learning better and even I know that's the magic switch that changes everything. When the kids says, Well, I don't know, right? How can I do better? That's like throwing the match in the box of fireworks. You know, the whole thing goes off and it's fabulous to see, you know, it's just and then they start asking about the lighter, normal temperature and all the other love. I mean, I'll give you give you a hard number here, So I'm I'm sitting at a desk and I've got this little box here with measures, all these things. So it's giving me. We just stepped through the the numbers. I've got CO two in here because I've got the builders in. I shut the windows before we started talking. So that co two in the room is 232,210 parts per million. So I'm gonna open the window now, and I'll shove it open in a few minutes. We'll have a look at that number again and see how improves it is. But the little things make a big difference. And I am, of course, I'm surrounded by plants. OK, they will. I'm surrounded by plants that are. I'm trying to do a job of making the room better. But you know those little things. So people people talk a lot about, what do we need to do to make education better? And how do we get today's generation of Children to pay more attention to blah blah? It's never the Children, and it's very rarely the curriculum of the teachers. You know, it's so often the little details and you know, you you you'll know because you did all that work with the Navy. You know, you'll know that there was a time when to be an Olympic star, you had to be in the Navy or the army or whatever it was that gave you the time, you know? But we never won very many medals because a lot would turn up and they say Right, you know, it's the 10,000 metres. What I'm going to do is this. This this and they knew exactly what to do based on what the people before had done. But of course, they were always over taken by people who added to that so poor Brendan Foster would arrive on the fastest man in the world a year ago, Andi come forth with anything. Damn, how did that happen? And the answer was that each year people said, How can we do this better? And of course, if you look at our schools, you know, we seem to be trapped in a motel where you saw it classically with the A level image. The A level marks, you know, with the expectation was that the best you could do was as well as the year before had done. And that to me, Mr Point, all together, you know, people's minds were pulled back by people two or three years before they're done Worse. Well, of course, they sleep well done, whereas you were supposed to be making progress so that that absurd of refugee in that sense of moving the self forward, I think it is really important. You know, a kid, somebody else. Another day, the group of Children were interviewing me in a similar way to you are really only had some surprising questions, but one of them wass Do you think Children today are smarter than Children? When you were a school on DH? Now I don't know if there's been a ripple in the gene pool of Don't think evolution works that well, but certainly their ability to do better. Because now we know how to, you know, the science of learning his fabulous, But I see very little of it applied in the class. Now I'll give you another example that everybody will recognise. I've got this book of brain food recipes. Yeah, we've been looking with a good group of girls 12 and 13 year old girls in Spain. We've been looking at what is the best food for your brain. Now if I'm going back to the Olympics from Munich and if I've got I'm in,...

Cleveland would be happy to be a 10,000 metres rather. But let's imagine I'm a putting the shock. Perhaps I've got the build for that. I would know what to have for breakfast on the morning of my heat, and I'd know what to have for breakfast on the morning of my final, and they might be subtly different. And I'd know what to have for breakfast for the whole of the last four years, Kid, going into a high stakes exam where their future literally khun depend on three or 4% 1 way or the other. I don't even know if they should have breakfast or not let alone what have let alone want to have the night before. You know, what's the past? The loading equivalent ofthe got me. Jesus. See? Multiple choice tomorrow and we haven't told anybody, you know. So it's pretty clear when you start looking at the food thing that the right foods. I mean, probably the worst thing you could have would be a can of Red Bull. Yes, we'd probably be actually better. They hit a kid over the head with a shovel and then give him a can of Red Bull. I mean, that would be its disastrous, because the caffeine breaks down the short term memory that the basic weather. Why the way? They're kind of like I'm here. Why am I here? You know, they know they kind of wide away. Just don't remember on the sugar gives them a sort of a huge sugar. Russia, the beginning, and then all their confidence goes about 35 40 minutes into the exam. I mean, adjusted its and aunties and drink. But wouldn't it be interesting if Red Bull made a grable, you know, a drink to make your brain the best they could possibly be on. Every kid in the world would drink it before their big tests. But we literally don't do that. And I keep thinking, if learning was the Olympics will be doing a hell of a lot better than we do. You wouldn't be. I absolutely agree. I mean, I think what you're saying about the environment, the food, the way and what I really love is those are things that should just be a given. Actually, that should just be there. We should all know that on we should all do that as a matter of course. But the bit that then becomes exciting is how do we empower the young people to take the lead in knowing that testing it, making it happen on listening to you is making me sad, because when I think about the process off edges of schools, at the moment the process is almost the opposite of what you're saying. We are almost creating an environment that doesn't serve young people. Well, we are. We have taken away food, we have smashed free school meals on. We've had a great thing from Marcus Rashford is turning into a bit of a hero of mine at the moment, absolutely, really, totally loving what he's doing. But in terms of the content and the pentacle J off the what we're learning in schools, what are your thoughts on that? Well, it's a complex thing because so in the last two months I've spoken to a thing just coming up now to 100 minister of Education or their most senior civil servant. That's a terrific ly large number. I'm not sure it's still smiling. I'm impressed, David. That is the room. But actually, they've always said some really interesting things. I mean, and then I think for a lot of them, they're saying, You know, when we had the industrial revolution we got, we got compulsory primary education. Everything changed because we need the people who could tell the time, do what they're told after the Second World War, but 40 for Education act. We have a proper secondary education in vote, and that was a huge, huge change. So the Children were expected this down at school, really 16 and it is totally the big enough thing to be the third being revolution in sums of learning I think it is. And so I think we're at a point when certainly those ministers were saying they were somewhere dinner while we doing standardised test. Because the university, they're taking the kids anyway then than any exams, So why would we? Money? And we're not just giving my math, Given my rank and off again, nobody cares that we got it and then But they're also saying, I mean, I tried from Australia that saying, We've got a lot of Children registered to do biology exams were really kids doing technology. We've got a national shortage bio technologists. So you know it doesn't quite work anymore. Putting the subjects in the boxes. You know, we need some some way to apply problem solving across the subjects and inevitably leads into problem based, project based learning. You know, that's where you end up P Bill Andi also collaboratively. You know, it seems, you know, Obama, professor in Madrid, chair in learning innovation, which is fabulous. Real Madrid, just down the road. We have a relationship with him, of course. And when they win, as they often do the Champions League or whatever, they all get a medal. They all go up and they handed out. They don't say, Well, well done. If people Gareth, you're only on the pitch in 20 minutes, so you're not...

...getting anything and everybody gets the medal is a team. You go out into the workplace. People spend a lot of money on team building. They spend a lot of time on being members of the team on a wall, the that entails. And yet we still go. Kids doing an exam. I haven't seen that never seen on a level. So there you go. That's got seven names on their name. We did this together. We pass. If we all got it, we all gotta be in. The other world they're going out into is entirely team based, and I find that really, really interesting. It's Bean. Another revelation from sport really is watch watching Australia were very good and team were watching them. When you look ATT there, correction and they have an awful lot of team based activity in their curriculum. Some of that support a lot of other things as well. Back over here in certainly in England is very, very individual when we use that scene in sports at the level of individuals, but it is very rare for a team to do well. 1966 World Cup of Love. And some have been awhile, hasn't it? Certainly has on then Teo planning three for rugby. Oh, okay. And I know, but Jane is the boy's with. But I'll tell you one. I mean, if we were just making a joke of this for a moment, I mean, most of our learning in England is sitting down learning on most of the sports we gotta have sitting down sport. So we're really good at Formula One and horse riding and sailing and rowing. In any sport where you get to sit down, we're okay. This can't be standard sleeping. Let's see that way. Lead the world and sitting there we were not anymore. I mean now, even if I was, if I was to show you the hockey Olympic hockey teams learning space, which is having a party cabin, it looks like a good primary school. It really doesn't. Others was right. Herbal services On every war, there's bright colour. The students, if I could describe the athletes and students because they're learning in that space, is sitting on tears. Something very close together, focused on the floor, is part of the learning space. The teacher, the coach, has introduced the task, put his hands in his pockets and stood back while the students share the tasks with each other. I mean, it's just good driver education right there on those hockey Girls, of course, won gold in the Rio Olympics for the first time, a leader so learning learning really does make the difference, you know? And so there's plenty. There is no wrong with learning in our schools, But I just need We're going to keep up with the world. We need to look at those marginal gains and those other bids. Remember in Atlanta 1996 with one gold medal, This's Redgrave again, sitting down. But Pinson Redgrave, brother, that was the one gold medal. I mean, this time in Rio. I actually couldn't tell you the name of the 22nd gold medal. It's over 64 medalists because they're so so you know, learning is a part of that journey really important, and I think we're just going back to what you were saying about that collaboration in that project based learning back in the you know, I think they call them the Noughties. I was really enjoying some work I was doing in primary schools that were they just take the cricket apart and they put it all back together. Is different projects with different themes and the mass and the English and the the history and the science were all in there and they were creating and making and doing and they weren't sitting down on. There was no linear process to it. And I'm not saying that wasn't This was particularly easy for the teachers because they then mapped back all of those learning outcomes to the much more rigid curriculum that they were supposed to be following on DH. Then we had a change of government direction on DH. The primary curriculum went from being a real follow on from my still favourite part of our standardised learning is the early years programme which is still inquiry led and I'm still doing it in planning it and doing it in reviewing it and it was lovely and then we got a change of government and a change of direction that said, actually, we need now need to know the Kings and Queens in order, I said. So what are your thoughts on that kind of political interference that for me just took the legs out. Primary? Yeah, well, it's no means no unfamiliar. Let's just get back to the Norwood reported in the 19 forties, because that was the foundation for the change in the weather for the for the Education Act. Change education dramatically and old Norwood was very clear that he saw a vision off exams in curricular being written by her, managed by teachers and teachers. Would would write the exams and do the testing than they would. They would do things that were relevant to their community. And that's all like that. They initially in the mode three cigarettes. So there, the original certificate of secondary education. Moment three and they're witches. Very old people listen to this will be noting if they'd been loaded off. No, I didn't see it with you. I did so I used... in the in Islam that ice the feature Black studies mode three. Because here we are, with black lives matter and being wondering whether some of that history should go in the Caribbean and well, I wrote with our community behind the one little black studies mowed through and it covered everything from there, you know, black love on the podium in the in, the in the Olympics, through Teo, when Russian there was a really, really done. The kid's project was to go out and interview people in the Cubans on the menu that you coming from with essentially and told them about their experience so that in the local community wrote the exam that mattered to them that covered a lot of history. That was important stuff. But we can see now how important it was because the collecting that has bean catastrophic, you know. And then along came I think it was must have been Keith chosen, who decided that the subject will be determined from the centre and my, my, my my partner here, Carol was teaching winning studies in mortems. Though girls cover at the time as well, you know? And you know I gave those girls are real sense off. You know, girls are snobs and fly to Mars. It gave him a real real sense off Steve Now, in a way that was necessary. Boredom there Because a lot of both of them recent nation by migrant families arriving there and the kids, the girls in particular having a pretty torrid time, really, with historic expectations of girls roll clashing with where they should have bean in England and so relevant there. Remember having to tell the parents that we weren't allowed to teach our exam anymore. And they said, You mean we've got to do the same with people in Norridge? No idea about the big on marriage is actually quite got a multicultural place. That's it. Yes. And they said, But there's no black people in the rich. What's actually there are about there are a lot more in East London, you know, they just could not believe that the same exam with the relevant right out there in these anger as right down in the busy south London cost they were right, you know, So somewhere in a ll this, you know, the people of stopped trusting teachers. That's where it went wrong. And you saw that again with the with the algorithm debacle, we were teachers that there are not a word to moderates each other's judgement to make good judgments on their kid's performance tohave people. Another school was on head of department, formerly come on moderating marks and I reckon those mounts pretty flipping robust. Onda long comes and have elements that we don't trust, the teachers and all. We're gonna base it on on Lena's cigarette. What else to say? No, I don't know what else you could say. It was a market while kids thinking today key thing about it, wass that the arguments think of the Children were being assessed by teachers to have done a little better than the exam. Assess them. And somehow that was seemed to be a failing at the school and not a failing of the examined. But we're on city things out. We're giving the kids a slightly worse mark because the exam there's a less good job at judging how good kids come Billion. Partly that's because these animals had bad light band, steel toe pad on the other things. And how could they possibly represent the kid's personal best? I'm just running the little box here to tell you that the CIA to bring down the 558 so we've more than hard, too. Well, I've been talking just opening the windows have done that. If every sound those exam results might have been the phone affair a measure of the Children's performance, then no, a fair measure because the exam ones are crap on on DH, you take into account the whole Siri's of other things that just necessarily impact on you. In the real world, some people are just exam phobic. Some people had a really bad breakfast, she said. Before some people had a terrible trip. Some people had a fight that morning before they went in. These things happen in life will not be judged. Absolutely. I mean, you know, I'm now postmenopausal. Thank the Lord, but I was absolute martyr to PMT. I really wass Andi suggested that does perfect. They can judge Children better than properly moderated teachers. Working together is his nonsense, but it's a nonsense we seem tto port into. To the extent that coursework has all but disappeared and left me still had course book, that would have been very easy, wouldn't it? Residents of kids progress this over, Helen, have a look at my coursework and have a look at what I've done. Have a look at our project but that's all gone and it's gonna have to come back. Well, I I agreed. We're goingto have Teo. I saw really examples of excellence and I feel very frustrated that they have been driven. Act with this on DH hurdle race approach that you get over this exam to get over this exam to get over this exam without any sense of really, what have you learned? And what do you feel? You, Khun Doom or off? But how would you go about assessing that learning then? I mean, I'm hearing very strong. Let the...

...teachers do it. I probably have a different view and I probably be nearer. Actually, let's look at how the learner's themselves more engaged with their Cecil Ugo little peer evaluation. That's the beauty part. The kids will make a really good judgement, and you've got in the Thurston Low Repairs but dates back to 1927 u know where kids if they pick up, you know any to it. You get a group of kids and I will pick up any two s and these kids will tell you this they say is better than this one. Pick up another lot. But they do not struggle to compare two essays and pick the best one. You collect a wedding in the database and you have a look at you. You will have a more accurate ranking than if you triple market, but we've no, that's in 13 27 has not just just being discovered. Good old Thurston voted up nearly a century ago, so we know how to do this. And also we've got lots of things like in architecture. So if I want to be a postgraduate architect, I built my crit on my cretins, my critical appraisal when I literally build the stuff that evidence is my scholarship. So I don't I don't make him essay about what I've learned about the scholarship of architecture. I build a multiple that shows my scholarship and other architects looking and they say, Oh, yeah even understands that on DH on we move or than my peers by shelling students made that judgement as well. We know how rigorous that could be. You know how bad has single exam with a single mom and I used the mark exam papers on the train going up to Liverpool Street and the person on the scene next door. You know that school right sees that authority. They say, I'll go. I'll give him a chance, you know, became. But that's on me. Tell me God be gone. Three champions will be could've been subjective. That's what happens. You know, people. It's not a robot market. That they never notice, is that it's a real person when we know the problem's with him. So you know. So we've got good rigorous. When will trace the well documented, accurate ways of making judgments about performance and sometimes an example? I'll be one of those things, but the short of it is in all of them on. But we just think could be kind of doesn't matter, does it? Because around the world Eagle heading that way anyway, So far, if our learning is gonna hold up on the world stage, it's got to be comparable to the world stage in the Pisa ranking people according the collaborative problem solving, we're gonna have to do collaborative problem solving. Well, we're gonna plunge down the rankings and it's kind of it's never the ministers don't matter. Many of ministers just kind of try and may I have ever met a minister with marries of our better pretty daft ones. I have to. I'm not gonna name them. That would be inappropriate. Well, boy, I've met planks. We haven't got time to listen well, but I mean, there's a but then they're not militias, you know, they come in to try and do a good job. And the hand, of course, is a worry these days about civil servants because in the olden days of civil servants were in the department for a long time, they accumulated a lot of knowledge, and they view about it'll Handem now they've been about said that the comment of political appointments coming in and all sorts what's a Donald Rumsfeld think? They literally don't know what they don't know, and I don't hate him, but that I feel sympathetic to them. For a lovely example, there's a There's a lot of the exploration. I think of the moment of our virtual education. There's the Oak Academy, and some of those lessons are actually really rather good. I like some of the people there, but there's a lot of content around the world. They're just part of a wall. On was an exploration about whether we should build an open school or not like the Open University. You'll remember that back in 1997 we set up not school, which was a virtual school. The kids have been excluded from this government. Of course, they did project base work. Of course they did. Course, Burke. Of course, these and system allowed them to present quality learning on having bean kicked out of school. 70% of them found a place in college, and we had to set up university degrees for them. So they had a pathway right through. And 70%. There's a better score of the schools that had kicked him out. So no school was expelled him And they did better than the scope mineral riches. I've rather comforting. But all that's not that's not lost on the papers. All there is for the research on the reports are all gone. They're not in the department anymore, so I'm not so I actually got him. So I'm sending him back. You need to have a look at this, you know, Huh? One day this way, didn't say in the nineties. And it was so successful. I think this I'm gonna come back, Tio, how we measure performance. I'm completely part that one. But I think this conversation that has been ignited by this dreadful pandemic around how you learn virtually and where you should blend it with in person on. I've done quite a few assessments in schools where they've asked me to come in and say What's been...

...the impact of this? What have we done well and what have we done badly and really resonates with what you're saying? Because those schools set up projects that forced the young people to collaborate, albeit virtually. They weren't going to each other's houses, but they had. They were put into teams. They have to collaborate. The one person was doing the research, one person was doing the design and then they'd share it. Those were the things with that doubt that the users, the learner's very probably the wrong word. The learner's, the parents on the school's felt had accelerated their learning the most where Children were just planning through on their own. Yes, they might have had some significant knowledge acquisition, but they hadn't actually moved on. In terms of the proved a sense of learning it all So what are your thoughts about how we can take what we've learned from covet and really make it useful around technology and landing? I mean, you put your finger on it, really, And then their feedback from kids has. Bean has been powerful about what they value when they value the things you just described. It was with a group of students just just the other day and quite a lot of them on a zoom. And I should hold up your hands and how many days a week which you need to be physically with your classmates to feel that you're part of the school. And they said they'd missed, you know, the social stuff and they missed slogan or whatever they do. You know, their missile, that chimp on guys, how many days do you need to be together? And that the average was too average the two fingers? No. One kids at five and plenty said one, because two is average, so they don't think they need to be in all day every day. And I think that's one of the big changes we're going to see because lots of parents working from home now so the ability the younger Children to work from home without costing the parent and income in her home. Educators off our poorest church mouse off Because what somebody has to give up on income to stand under the kids? Well, if you're working from home anyway, that that's not a problem, you know, and had. Clearly, that blended approach is really interesting because one of the things we saw, I think was the wind schools tried to do live lessons. It's 11 o'clock. You need to be at your zoom desk talking to miss this baby will be doing. I didn't something hideous and because he didn't work because there were three kids in the house and you have all got something on the 11 o'clock news, only that much bandwidth. And by the way, Mummy's on zero hours contracts, and she's online. Trying to hold down a job Putting 11 o'clock is, well, where is when you said, Here's the past for the week. Collaborate with each other here. The resources we'll give you a bit of a heads up sort of Thursday morning, but you need to have a listen by the end of Thursday because we can have a plane to meet to discuss it all on Friday. And then you got in pretty woman when it was ah, sinker that she must know that this time it was just so un joo home. So many kids and all that social disengage with this equity happened in a wealthy families with lots of brown with a wealthy opportunities. And about that to bring coffee in it, they got on they got on fine, always 11 o'clock jeans. Bring me our sandwich from my 11 o'clock. But pretty much everybody yells. It was one of the people we're talking about rolling on 11. How are you going to do that? They all sort of sat on the pavement outside the dome was tryingto trying to piggyback on the way show. I mean, it was just a nonsense. So we've learned some very clear lesson about how all this words, but general would say they're not lessons we didn't know 30 years ago, you know? I mean, you know, I was putting online learning together with press del, you know, sort of teletext stuff on the BBC micro and, you know, for the whole of Essex and heart, which is not not small numbers of kids. And we knew then that synchronous excluded a lot of Children and asynchronous embraced collaboration. Project later learned that was 1980 whatever it wants. So you know, I think is unforgivable that we known it for so long and stopped action. And I think the total things being a really blunt reminder to people the whole Blimey, Now we know what works. Well, it's gonna be a battle. Anything is the weather that could be allowed to work in schools or whether kids will just give up on schools. I don't think I think it gives their old looking back in and made to do exactly the same thing. A significant number of them will stop and they got choices This time. I think that as thie pattern of parents working changes, I think the pattern of Children's learning may change and you've mentioned obviously you know me. And you know that my passion is how we do Mohr to ensure that those with the least advantage in society actually have better access, not just the same much better access to real learning opportunities. What would be your your one piece of advice. Your silver bullet here about how we can really sure that ensure that those Children with the least advantage I get the most out of a school based system. Yeah, I mean, I asked him what is the obvious answer? You know, when we when we said not school up for those touch kids and they were tough kids, we...

...called them. They had to invent a whole new category because it wass not school, not school dot net website still there, you know, but so we called all the kids in the searches we didn't call him. Pupils are students. We said you researchers and I remember early on hygiene Department of Education. We were doing a a thing with a lot of journalists coming to talk about it on one of them saying really quite a patronising way to one of the kids. Your called researcher. You're just Children. Pupils, aren't you? Really? And we had to put a hand on the kid's shoulder because he was out of his seat, was gonna deck the German and he was saying, Of course, we researcher nobody knows about this stuff. We're in things like this together. This is something you and we're doing. That sort of sends off. You know, we've been asked that we know how this works and we're going to discover they really belong to be researcher. So there's no hard to talk to kids who are no. Getting as much out of school is that it should be, and they'll tell you obvious things and they'll say they'll say, when you really crap, it's something at school They make you do more of it until you leave. That's a very sort of That's a very blunt piece of advice and Children, but that's what they told us in 1997. And it's still true that, you know, it's not very good that you're not very good and massive and a load more mask when you should be doing sport, you know, and where I'm out of here they go and they'll tell you that's the problem. And also they'll tell you about numbers on people not understanding. They are lovely zone for the kids, not was a carer, and his mom was a crack at it. So first thing in the morning at the Properties mum up in a sitting up, clear up the vomit all over a chest ct, right so she would choke on her own vomit. She's still unconscious. He's got three siblings. He's got to get them dressed, shaving off to school, put their clothes in the washing machine with the mums, vomit close, you know, and get to school. And then the school was a particular one. Deputy head teacher in the school would wait for him on the school gate, as he was mostly late on would shriek that, you know, surely the only one thing he had to do in the morning. We get to school on time. He couldn't even do that. And she had absolutely no idea of this heroic world. That bean I'm doing, you know, since six o'clock in the morning before he came to school, and kids, kids expect schools and know who they are. When we went in the Cayman Islands, we divided up a very big school in the schools within. Schools on the results leaped. They've got really better. And I said the well in the girl's there. What? What's changed? You know you're in it. You're in a school now. It's a quarter the size of the school, he worried. Are we willing to build two walls across quarter? The place almost human shared library and, she said, was wonderful phrase. I'll try and remember precisely, she said. Well, then you And then she said. It's not that they know that you don't died is that they knew you had a dog on what his name was. Yes, a very, very precise in a piece of pain. Only rather than 30 built died getting their help for a little zing, zing toes up. Now I'm sorry to hear that one belonging to a community on one of the easiest ways that we could really engage with the most with the least advantaged in society is to make sure that school actually knows them. Absolutely must teachers out there who are fabulous heroic about knowing those kids, and they are, you know, some of them. I mean, you would you would you would die in protection of those teachers. But there were less and less often because the ability to embrace those back channel details of Children's lives are not something that is valued enough by the system so they don't get promoted. They don't get turned in their heads. They don't get given autonomy, you know, they end up doing more and more that in their own time. And they're the most precious people in the system. So that here there's some things that need fixing. I really think there are. And I think, Wait, we're coming close to time and I want to just go back, Tio one point about what currency would you give Children when they leave school? That would be meaningful to employers because I think or two universities or two next stage of life. Because I think, as you said earlier, we've probably demonstrated that the currency of A levels and GCS is actually isn't doing that. So what? What what would you give him? What would be your currency? Yeah, I mean, they I mean, they need they need something that says they knew for sure. On DH, What are employers looking for? What our parents and partners looking for, what, our community, the American for ingenuity and the ability to take Deaton of genuine deep knowledge on the soul. The problem with it is really, really important, and everybody's looking for that. You know, the questions you get asked that interviews. When you are young, they're going for a job. Well, about one thing. If you were facing this problem, how would you sold it? And they're looking to see you show off your knowledge. But also the show of your ingenuity. This is more than creativity. We lost Ken Robinson just the other day. Yeah, it's so sad because he was such a lovely, subtle, lovely man spoke so well of...

...creativity on I'd speak alongside that of Injun unity. You know, creatively solving problems with knowledge is ingenuity, and I'd certainly alarm them with that. But I also want to arm them with the confidence that they're good at this stuff. You know, I think you know Children going back. You know, you know, there's a lot of talk about catch up in schools at the moment because there's almost no talk about how we're going to learn what the Children are down and build on that Andi, you know, the kids have done wonderful stuff and you walked through the door, and nobody values anything you've done in the last six months and gives you a test in talks A catcher. So you wasted your time, your self esteem is down there on the floor. And what a waste Because some of those kids with them really good things. How do we build on that is a challenge for system for the system. How do we catch the Children up? Is a deficiency model of Children that I think is insulting and, you know, it's a really interesting time, and we saw with not school over and over and over again. Kids who's, you know, hit a moment of profound humiliation in their schooling. When they said the hunt, I'm done. I'm out of here and off they went. Whether they set fire to the place or stabbed, the teacher just left. You know, it was a bit of a variable, but they left on. Those moments of humiliation are really there's a real danger Now kids coming back in from Cove, it being humiliated by being told all the things they've done are of no value because the only value is here in the in the test. We just giving him. So this is a tough time for education. This takes three months really tough on a really tough time for a huge number of young people, which I think brings this almost full circle back to where you started With our billions of Children, half of humanity in education and those that are half of them have already been told that they failed. And if we continue with this deficiency model, we're going to have to continue to have young people who don't feel ready for the workforce because they don't feel ready for life themselves. Andi, let's be made. No mistake. I mean, the world is full of increasing the large problems on DH way. God, obviously, climate crisis, vast water shortages appearing rapidly. Got migration. We've got war. We've got some really crazy, you know, country leaders. I mean, we're just count the problems. We've had them in Australia that floods one minute, bushfires the next. We've been following all hard on the heels. You know, we will not solve those problems without every single smart kid being part of the action. And I'll take you back in closing. Really? Zona, tow the second World War again, which is before my time just to carry it. But But a huge number of Children were evacuated during the war. They were sent off to work on farms in Wales for three years. I mean, they won't be out of school for a couple of months, and they were out of their families for three years and they were thrown into places that they've never seen forming in the hours of East London into the slate. Mine, you know, looks like And what came out of that was a generator them who were spectacularly able to the ingenious, You know, that you create nature invention home of England, really another Colin Chapman's and Vivienne Westwood's and whoever else in all those sharp creative minds and the John Lennon's. And you know that generation that came out following from all that. We're able to make the best off unexpected circumstances and rebuild a nation on the economy on that. And I don't think we're doing that at the moment. You know, I don't think we're building kids that Khun B as ingenious as they need to be, and I think over it showed us that some of those kids could be flippant, ingenious on DH, could support the youngsters, and could the mixed age teaching and staging that agent collaboration and problem solving and project based taken duel that Now let's let them. Hey, I know let's celebrate what they've achieved during the last six months and not just tell them they failed and they've got to catch up. Stephen, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. I could carry on for another three hours. Happily, I'm sure Perhaps I'll come back to you again at some point in the future, but huge. Thanks for your time. Thank you for listening to this episode of Third Millennium Education. I'd like to know what has been your biggest takeaway from this conversation. If you did enjoy this episode, do hit the subscribe button to continue to receive future episodes. If you would like to be interviewed or you know somebody who would be good to interview, please also get in touch. I hope you'll join me on the next episode, and together we can carry on the conversation to ensure that we can best meet the needs of Third Millennium Learners employers in the country. Thank you again and see you on the next episode.

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