Third Millennium Education
Third Millennium Education

Episode 16 · 1 year ago

Mark Rogers, Executive Director at Collaborate CIC and Zarah Printer, Board member for Care Leaders Covenant Advisory Board


Welcome to another episode of Third Millennium Education. This week we are so excited to have a special episode consisting of two guests, Mark Rogers and Zarah Printer. We are going to hear from their view on the current education system, and the importance of supportive educators and caregivers in their lives, and how they benefited from it.

“One of the main things that I hear from young people over and over again, we actually want to be heard.”

“Love should never leave. Represent the fact that when your childhood and your adolescence is disrupted, it doesn't mean that you don't need what every child needs, which is somebody to love you and care for you and to never stop doing those things.”

“Caregivers and educators are supposed to be somebody who's rooting for you, supports you, challenges you but never gives up on you. And that's the challenge. And that's what the covenants really are.”

“We need to be empathic in our relationships. And we need to be relationship focused, because the evidence shows that it helps children to be more successful.”

“Two main things need to be focused on, understanding the needs of children that they look after. And tailoring the educational system for this cohort.” 

I'm delighted to be hosting this podcast. Third Millennium Education. It's a collection of thoughts and inspirations of stakeholders within education. What is education for? On who is it serving? This's a podcast exploring state mandated education, its relevance impact and how it can best meet the needs of third millennium learners. Employers on the country. My interview. Exciting people who have had direct experience of education, whether you are a parent, training to be a teacher, a policy maker and academic or an education innovator, nobody working attack. There will be something for you. I'm your host. Zanna hopes I am delighted today. Teo, welcome up. Rogers on Zara, printed to the third millennium podcast market, started life as a teacher moving on to fake teacher on now going into national government and now is the director general, Andre said Children services alone. I'm sure he hasn't much longer title in Jersey on DH Zara printer, who is about a Please become a board member for the Care leader Covenant Advisory Board, but also work for the Department of Education in the department for Children in care. So both of you bring a wealth of experience about young people in care as well as the education system. So I'm really looking forward to having a lively debate and discussion with you. But let's go for a soft opener. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about your experience of education, the sort of personal elements of your experience of education. I'm gonna be made and I'll start with you more great. Thank you. So I'm going to share three quick reflections really? About what shaped my view of education when I was in it, as well as when I kind of went back in. It actually is a teacher on DH. The context for all of this is coming from a forces family where I moved around quite a lot. So I guess I saw lots of different schools, but never really, until my teens sort of got a fix on what I really thought about what was happening for me and for other young people. So the three recollections really are these the first bond wass when I was 13. So I guess these days here eight came back from the summer holiday to my former grammar school, which had turned comprehensive a couple years before in Bedford and came back from the summer holiday to discover a whole load of Terrapin huts around the perimeter of the school site, along with my friends. Of course not just me discovered them, had a conversation with our teachers about what was this, and completely to barb amusement over the summer holiday, a school across town had closed. I mean, why would I know that? That was a 13 year old, but it closed, and quite a large number of the youngsters had been moved to our school as we saw it. Nothing extraordinary in that, except for kind of the way it was described in the first main assembly of the start of term, which was we should probably not mix too much for those Children because they come from the other side of town. They weren't former grammar school intake, and let's make sure that actually are focused on our learning and all our ambitions weren't kind of sidetracked by getting interested in a bunch of youngsters who might lead us astray, I paraphrase. But that was pretty much the messages was don't mix a few years later, so I had an aunt who ran a small residential special school in deepest, darkest Buckingham. Schiff, Summer of 1976. 2nd date me on the phrase the hottest summer well, until recently, at least the hottest summer ever, apparently because I remember that. Anyway, my aunt's is on a summer camp because it's a residential school. So obviously, in the holidays, the answers were still there. Bought a group off 17 and 18 year olds, actually, on a summer camp to just outside the village where I lived in the north of Bedfordshire on DH. My mom clearly fed up with me, having nothing to do over the summer...

...holidays that said, You can go and help your aunt. You know, she's largely on her own. She's got a group of I think there's any 56 young people with her kind of relieved her a bit. Don't do something with the young people and that something was actually contain them next door because we live next door to a pub. I mean absolutely idyllic lifestyle for May. Take next door to the park by them some lunch. Have a conversation give you on to break, So yeah. Okay. Sort of Knew what my aunt did residential special school kind of had a bit of sense of that, anyway. Turned out five young people, thankfully, all 18 with learning disabilities. And I'm kind of oh wow, what have I just agreed to? Almost no experience as you can imagine, maps back then, of people who were different from May, and there I am, kind of his. Here's the keys to the mini bus. Pick them up, take them to the pro, buy lunch, have a drink, have a conversation and a big penny dropped about different people on then. The third thing to join all of that together in a way that's not too disingenuous, I hope. But eventually, when I'd been to uni and then the singing about what to do after university, some in my early twenties now I decided to go back for a year or voluntary work in the residential special school. But my aunt was still out again. I suspect my parents probably thought I needed something useful to do because I haven't found a job, spent a year there on, decided to go into a PDC to teach youngsters with special educational needs. And at that 0.1985 couple years after a formative education acts the Warlock Captain 81 which started to be sort of come into effect in 83 immersed in inclusion thinking. So I think now is at 13. I wanted one might not allowed to talk to other Children. At 16, I went, Wow, I've never talked to other young people like this before on by the time I finally got myself properly qualified and ready for work, my educational view had been completely shaped by. There are lots of different people in this world, but all of them are entitled toe having their dreams fulfilled. And we need to provide an education system that can do that now, whether I literally got to that point of the age of 20 for whatever I was, I'm not sure. But as I look back and kind of reassemble it all, I can see that golden thread and probably where it leads me to is I'm still an agitator for inclusive education. I believe that we must do the most we can Teo differentiate learning and teaching so that every single child, whatever their starting point, can still have hope that what they really want to be and what they really want to do can be fulfilled. What? Wonderful. I love the way the venerated your thread. And I suspect it's probably more truer than you think it is to arrive at a conclusion that Aiken passionately share with you. That actually what defied this's what breaks us, and what unites us is what will actually in Paris. And I think that's all. So I know this will get edited so you could take this bit out. But what's really, really stayed with me is the power of some of the thinking. I came across it just that that one year was not even a year. Visit PDC is like eight months, just in that short period of time. I came for some wonderful tutors who got me to properly appreciate that. You know, it's a cliche these days, but actually differences to be celebrated values been sort out. Yeah, not be avoided. And be embarrassed about. Yeah, we don't edit anything out here. You're going rule. Sorry. Tell me about your education experience. Yeah, sure. I think I will follow on quite nicely from lops ending about an inclusive education system because I actually went into foster care during the latter part off my education time. So I think the to do out folks on is probably from...

...when I went into foster care, which was during secondary school and then progressing into university. So at the time, so what had happened during my gtsi years? So we're talking 13, 14 years old. My mother had suddenly passed away. At that time. There wasn't a lot of support around from anyone other than my school. So my school, actually at the time were a safety net. Almost for a year and a half, I saw off Spen staying where friends from school on their parents. I sent staying with people. Are you outside of school? But actually, the local authority at the time had no sort off picked up responsibility for myself. Even though now I've got records from school teachers, you know, reaching up to the local authorities, saying that we've got a child that's serious safeguarding risks, you know, you need to take accountability. It wasn't happening, But I was very grateful that I had a school at the time that were taking accountability for me because I think if they didn't. I most likely wouldn't be in the position that, you know, maybe I'm now working. And now they supported me through. My GPS is my A levels, and I'm not going to say it was easy in the slightest. I had a very poor attendance rate, especially for the year and a half. The I didn't attend school. I had a very poor concentration. Ray, you know, I often would know, Probably turn up to lessons. Or maybe if I was turning up, I couldn't concentrate or no, I wasn't engaged. But the school did what they could, you know, particular teachers as well. They did what they could. They went over and above to ensure this child does not get left behind. And now where? I think, you know, there were instances they could have given up. There were instances. Maybe they could have excluded me, expelled me, they didn't. And they are very fortunate that I had teachers are actually soar past what was going on there. And then they have to pass the here and now. They looked past the behaviour that was more or less true to what was going on and previous trauma. They look past all of that and they saw that. Actually, there's a child that can do very well but just needs a bit of support to do so. They often stayed back after school. They often if I maybe didn't turn up that day. They sent stuff home this sense of to my email address. Remember, one day I didn't turn up for an exam. I just didn't feel like it on this teacher took it upon herself, and again. It's probably know in guidelines. But he took it upon herself to come to my house on DH before that examined it. She was at my bedroom door and I was fuming at the time. You know, I thought, God, what are you doing in my bedroom? And she says, are I want you to come with me right now because if we make it to the example before the rest of your classmates leave the exam, you can still take it because you will not have had contact with them. They can't have passed on the information over, and I went and I'm very grateful again, and I think this may have even been one of my A level exams. But it was just an example of how they just continuously went over and above. They never on, I think often for Children and care. The expectations are quite limited. People are quiet, you know. It's very like, well done you your one GCS e or well done. You didn't go to prison or like the expectations, should be at the same level if no higher than every other pupil. So I was very grateful. You know, I had teachers telling me, Sorry, you can go to any university wanted. You can go toe Oxford. If that's what you want, You can go any way you want. There is no barrier stopping you. They helped me with mucus applications. They would just find her stick on.

Appreciate this probably times that it could've done things better. But in the grand scheme of things, everything they did do was enough. It got me into unit now. It was a little bit harder as actually because now I'd left foster care on DH. I had the support teachers. I had the support first to carry the disposal services. All of that suddenly stopped on. Now it was me in unique with a personal adviser. It was very, very difficult. I mean, what made it mostly difficult, I think, was the emotional side of things. So you're always you always feel different. But I think for the first time where I wanted to be like everyone else, it was almost like a fresh start. It just It just didn't happen, You know, when people's parents were dropping them off on the weekends, you know, I had personal advisor, maybe a man in around dropping my things off. Nowhere, maybe financially. People were more supported where I didn't have that. You know, I was looking for another job for the evening, so I was going to lectures going to work. You know, I still wanted to go out and be with everyone else, but couldn't always. D'oh! Summer holidays in came around Christmas holidays came around on always left with nowhere to live at times are bounced around. Maybe family members houses back to foster placement at times. At times I remember staying up all night in coffee shops, 25 coffee shops just till the morning because I got so fed up of being a bit of a burden on people. I put my storage in herself. Look, Self storage locker. So it made it a lot easier for me toe move around if I needed to. So there was many a time. I think by the end of my second year of uni and I just thought I can't do this. I don't want to do it anymore. You know, I'm tired. Very tired. Why did I did buy by the September I got I got up. I found myself a flat. I finished my degree on DH. It was one of the best feelings in the world. Yeah, it was incredible on DH. Yeah, I mean, Long Storey short. I then go the job where I am now. I mean, I worked a year and a half with the minister for Children and families then working the position I am now supporting looked on Children. Young care is, but I think ultimately all stem backto know the teacher's within secondary school That gave me that chance. That's an amazing, very powerful and genuinely moving storeys are on DH just reminiscent of that black plastic bag bin liner of close. Isn't it just I don't know how many listeners will realise that impact that you have nowhere to go in the holidays and where do you go and where do you put your stuff on? There are many care leavers who will still today, I'm sure find themselves in very similar situations because as much as we continue the strike to improve things and it's not, it's not because people have bad will or are ill intentioned. It's the fact that the system just fails and repeatedly failed to recognise those names. But what's amazing to hear in your storey is individual teachers didn't on those people who do go the extra mile. Sometimes, despite the system, I'm quite sure that actually, in the cold light of day, that teacher could have got into trouble coming and getting you, definitely. But you might not be supporting the incredible number of young people in care that you're supporting today. If she hadn't, I'm not something about how we actually bring empathy on DH support and compassion back into professions. So thank you for telling us they're on. I think Teo put to both of you from both...

...of your experiences and from the places it centred you up. What would be your reflections that you think that young people in care today are experiencing in education. Sorry. From your role. You probably hear a lot of that. And I imagine Mark from your roller stretcher. Children services. You hear a significant amount about that? What do you think? Their experiences. What would they say if I was interviewing them, asking about what's it like right now? Well, do you wanna go ahead? No, I think you should speak first. I think I mean, to be honest, there's probably a whole host of issues. I think it would be quite difficult. Toe specified a few, I think, to be honest, looking back for me and like he said, it's all the world, the role I am in on DH. You know, the stuff that I do hear about him that I do see. I think the main thing is that people just on giving the opportunity to these young people, you know, I think you know, it's one of the main things that the case of covenant drives on, which is opportunities. But I think the stigma around Children and care liras. I think, as I mentioned earlier, you know, around people just having those really small expectations for Children and care on DH care leavers. I think we need to be ambitious for them. We need Teo. Give them a voice almost some of them might know. Have one. You know, one of my biggest roles at the moment is you know, I lied on the advocacy support for Children can care leavers. And you know, one of the main things I hear from young people over and over again is we just want to be listened to. We want to be No, but they're not only listened to know we want things to be done when we are being listened to. You know, we actually want to be hard, because sometimes I think what we confined or Children care confined is you know, you might be screaming at the top of your lungs, but unfortunately no one is listening. And I think we can all whether that's a teacher, whether that a lecturer, whether that personal adviser, I think we can all be an advocate for these charges and give them that voice that maybe they either struggling to voice our or give him that voice that maybe people aren't listening I think that the narrative around Children in care not doing well, you know, we continuously here this statistic off. 6% of Children in care end up in university, and I think we need to understand why is that? And I don't think that it's these Children don't want to go to university, But I think there's so many obstacles in their way on DH. I had the lucky opportunity of having teachers that continuously pushed me and fought for me. But I do not think that is the experience off Children care across the board now. I wish it wass Yeah, I want to come back, Teo picking up on some of those and some of the issues that young people in care face on, then some of the things that we could do to maybe change that. But your reflection would be helpful as well. Mark, before we do a little look back there, you know? So Zara said a number of things that I think I probably heard every day for far, far too long. So the first reflection from me and it draws from what Zara's said is there's a phrase we use in Jersey It's not embedded it all yet, but we're trying to get it. So which is love should never leave, and it's an attempt to represent the fact that when your childhood and your adolescence is disrupted, it doesn't mean that you don't need what every child needs, which is somebody to love you and careful you and to never stop doing those things on DH. The message I hear all the time and I get lots of examples of white power is not working. But the message I hear all the time is we need to be able to fall back on something and something that we that...

...sincere, genuine and we need and is flexible. So to give you a really good example, because Jersey exaggerate some of the issues that Zara's talked about. So most of our youngsters will go off the island for their higher education on. They don't go not enough going into higher education from our care experience community, but they almost always have to go off the island. So there's a double whammy for our youngsters in that they already have a disrupted life. They know having a settled home that they can call their own and loved ones around them is already disrupted. If you then go off the island to an English university, what is their future? Come back to in your holiday because you've invested all of your emotional and intellectual energies into getting to England, getting to your university, making friends, getting settled, doing your course and then you're going on. My goodness, what do I do between terms? So I come back all of the time and I'm bought back all of the time to what's the equivalent tohave being family and friends around you all of the time when your family can't necessarily do that for you or in some cases isn't allowed to do that for you, obviously. And this notion. So the Covenant has his notion of a universal family that it's not just a council that has corporate parenting responsibilities that it should fulfilled to the letter and to the spirit off it. But actually, all of us society Khun take that responsibility as well to create a difference but equivalent arms around all of our young people. That's what we need to strive for, and Zara's experienced connects with mine in one particular sense. I think is important because our experiences are also very different. But it connects him one really important sense. I can tell you the name of the teacher, my mommy too, if you like. But I tell you the name of the teacher who made that difference for May. It wasn't the same difference that needed to be made for me. That was made for Zara. Miss Robinson did not come round my house and I'm on my bedroom door and get me out of bed. But she did the equivalent for May. She made me want to g. O and complete my education and have the highest aspirations for myself. And she picked me up after some poor O levels so that I got some good A levels and good enough a levels to go to a good university and get a good degree and then go into a post grad as well on it's the same. In that sense, she never gave up. Ah, no, I think that's probably the broader message for me, which is we have to find other ways when our young people can't necessary get this from their family or even their wider family and Friends group. We need to find other ways that still provide that, because you always need somebody who's rooting for you, supports you, challenges you but never gives up on you. And that's the challenge. And that's what the covenant's about really is. What are the other ways off? You know, ensuring that love never leaves a young person when the most usual way of getting love is through your family and your wider friendship group. But that's being disrupted for whatever reason. And that's why listeningto Zara her experiences are very different to mine. But they're also exactly the same. She had somebody in that school who was prepared to get I don't care what the rules are. Frankly, I'm going to go and knock on a bedroom door and irritates with jaggery into school and make her do that blasted exam. So no, I'm just going to say there's a saying our once idol, I think, in my even being from Mark Goudeau and it was that idea off corporate parenting. But it was actually there's no enough parenting and this tutor or yeah, I think that's so true, and I think that there's also this far too many silos. So you sit with the local authority that has corporate parenting rights for you, and it's very corporate and there isn't very much parenting on then the school sees itself is outside that so as an individual you're either making continuously new relationships, continually telling your Storey on...

...having to explain yourself to anybody who's coming in, who might be able to do a bit of that parenting for you in a way that actually I think, can make you give up on each morning to tell it. I think that in schools where you start to get into trouble and so your teacher throws you out the classroom, you then go to maybe somebody who works in learning support and you tell your storey again on then you're telling them to the head of pastoral and then, you know, and in that school journey kind of lost the will to try and explain why you were so foul or unpleasant or rooms or whatever to the teacher that resulted that in the first place, which means I think that as well as what you were saying in terms of how schools connect. I think sometime and how young people Sorry, don't get hurt and particularly care, Lee was. Don't get people in care. Don't get hurt, but I think there also comes a point where you stop telling you are asked to tell so often. And so you do sometimes end up yelling on. I wonder if there's anything that either from your experience in the covenant or from your experience in schools, if there's anything specifically that you think we should be doing because I hear from you, we're not setting the aspirations hard enough. We're not doing enough to understand the disjointed nature of young people's and cares experience, and therefore we're not doing anything to try and bridge fat on that. It is luck. Whether you get a teacher, it sticks you like glue or north. So is there anything systemic that you think we should be looking at an education? So I've got opinions, as you'd expect then, bearing in mind my background. So working all of my teaching career was working with youngsters who, I guess in other people's eyes, attracted a label you know has had additional needs, special educational needs. So that was my background, and I worked in specialist settings as well, too. So special schools on one of the great experiences of working in that bit of the education system wass the expectation off. What? I guess we call it pastoral support don't weigh, but the expectation that you needed to create the conditions for learning not just go straight to learning. So one of the views that continue to hold its, especially as things have changed over over all of the years that they have changed a lot. You know, I'm old enough to end the introduction of the national curriculum, for goodness sake. But as the creek clams got tighter, you know, assessments got stronger, things have got squeezed and pastoral has got squeezed. It may be the pastor was not the best word these days because I think what we need schools to bay are relational institutions. And I think we're much more talk about the importance of relational working rather than Peschel working. Maybe now, But if I had a bunch of money and I was a secretary of state and I had some discretion on its on where it went, I would reinvest significantly in learning and development for professionals. Both teachers and so called non teaching style for their cause. Everybody's teaching on I would boost the ability of an institution like a school, to provide that relational experience for all of our Children. So that's all of them, got the benefit ofthe that broader and balanced experience off school, which involves things that aren't just formal learning, whether that's academic or technical vocational. So that's definitely something that I would do because I think that would be to the benefit ofthe everybody. And then I would continue to listen, as I both doing sometimes have Tio Tio young people and old young people like Zara about on what golden thread to they think works for them because I don't think that this isn't the so called one size fits all thing. But what kind of continuity is needed to help? You have somewhere to go and feel supported and challenged on When can that change? Because going to university is not the...

...same as going to school. So when is it right for things to change but still happen? Support for you, But my views are really clear. We need to be empathic in our in our relationships on we need to be relationship focus because the evidence shows also that that helps Children be more successful. Yeah, and I think that that whole relational approach is so important because I think we've become very obsessed with hitting the targets and education, and that is our focus on we've hit the targets and we've entirely missed the point on. The point is about helping young people to develop all sorts of things, whether that's a love of lifelong learning or whether it's in fact just the ability to cope with the day to day and never to be challenged. So I never to bay complacent in the challenge about high expectations again. My experience of working with lots of young Kim I was close enough to work from two through 2 19 years of age during the time I was in schools. Not all in the same school, by the way, and every child's gone ambition on DH, they're different and they should pay. But our job when we're kind of paid professionals, our job is to never lose sight of the fact that we want to know what the ambition is, and we probably want to challenge them to raise it as well, and that matters so much because we know that where that you've just said about testing haven't used. If you set your sights at that level. A nine these days of whatever is used to be in a Stein, and I was fortunate enough to get a old fashioned Grade A, B and C in a few things. But if you set it at sea, then you might get one. But you might know that if you set it on a star, we know, don't you that you might get in a or you might get an eight or whatever these days, It's so so important to have that challenge in the system that says, Come on, Are you really, really, really thinking ambitiously enough, your young people, only they can taken all perform and they can all achieve. Yeah, yeah, certainly my, my head teacher didn't believe I fought and achieve and told my mother that I would amount to nothing. I think that shortly before she threw me out her school permanently on one of those pairs kids as the when I eventually through securities route anywhere, eventually became chair of off stead. My mother actually went and done stole her grey. He expecting like like you won. We should let Sarin. And so you ended this hours or so I have about this. This is what makes a difference. And I know it's personal. And you say you shouldn't make policy out of anecdote nor that kind of stuff. A case as well as Miss Robinson, who gave me a lifelong love of history and made me do well at school when I didn't even know I wanted to. The head teacher at the school also. Fantastic guy. Mr Cornwall. I don't even know what is other names. Where's Mr Korman? Over succession of weekends in early 1979 took groups of us in his car to various universities round England and said, If you work hard and get your finger out, stop mucking about some of you Ugo here and I went to the university that he put me in the back of his car with a couple of others. I went to that university because of that. Yeah, What would be your voice? What All your sort of equivalence of the relational emphasis in schools. What do you think would make the difference to care, Lee. But K young people in care. To be honest, I think what was spot on to things that I would draw out from what Mark said, One of them is around. I think, you know, building the past world or support. I don't think enough people in schools are trained well enough to support the needs ofthe Children in care. I know we have. You know, we have to safeguard designated safeguarding leads. You know, we have designated teachers. We have wealth offices. You know, we have a whole host off them now, but I'm not...

...too familiar with how much training they don't what that training it is. But I do know think that there is enough people within the school that well equipped to deal with the needles Children in care. Andi, I think the training should also not be specific to those designated teachers. If I'm in an English class on DH, I'm having a meltdown. I, my English teacher, needs to be well equipped to either raised the issue or deal with the issue. It shouldn't just rely on that particular designated teacher, so I think definitely more training, training and true my training in mental health training and, you know, just understanding, almost like a day in the life of a child in care. Just understanding some of their behavioural needs and just yeah, I think definitely there needs to be more just in terms ofthe understanding, this cohort. And I think when I look back on times I remember there was a time I wanted to go to a particular university when I've completed my A levels, you know, and I was very happy with my levels, but I didn't get the grades to get into this university. But then when I looked back and I thought, you know, I was proud of them because I spent days and days out of education, why spend days and days having to deal with other stuff? No days and days may be dealing with grief, days and days, deed and wave moving houses. The University of time, even though I wrote on, did not take that into consideration. But then if I go back a little bit, and when I think was it fair that I had to sit the same exam as everyone else. So I think there's a little bit understanding. Is the system itself fair? I don't think there's an easy solution to this, but what eyes looked back? And I think there were times that my extenuating circumstances should have been considered where they want. So I think that the main two things understanding the needs ofthe Children that they look laughter on, I guess. Tailoring the education system for this global, you know, even six months ago what you're talking about about taking into account people's gaps of learning, for whatever reason on adjusting them would have been, you've been told it was an unthinkable thing. And yet every teacher in every classroom who is putting together their centre assess grades for the young people these years are doing just that right now on your I doubt very much has been put into play to think about. How does that impact for the young people in my school, who I already know, don't just have the disadvantage of time lost to learning through college or time lost to learning through a temporary shutdown due to isolation. But actually hang on a minute. What about the general time lost to learning for every kid in care was on their fault school who has made me had the same school but 10 homes on. I think that perhaps with a fair wind and maybe a different secretary of state for education. But only I can say that we might actually be able to learn from what this terrible pandemic has taught us, that we can be flexible, that we can look at the whole person and the whole set of circumstances on make regional adjustments and still be able to identify that we are. Those people could still have the same aspirations. And when they get there, they will do well and they won't be massive, great gaps because they may well be content need for catch up. But if you've worked with these young people to give them the skills they need, they can make it. I'm very aware of the time, and I've taken so much of your incredibly valuable time already. So if I just go to you with some brief closing thoughts about education, about young people, about young people in care, Mark, let... start with you. What would your closing thoughts bay? A really simple one. You've used the word already once, and so have I. I think the most powerful human behaviour to nurture and develop is the one of empathy that, first and foremost, whether we're talking about young people with care, experience, an additional learning needs, living in domestic violence, whatever, any of or any and everything. The most important thing you can do is a human, let alone a professional is trying. It's cliche, isn't it? Stand in their shoes, look through their eyes and clear your mind when you do that to try and removal the conscious and unconscious bias in you. That is the most important thing I think we can do on. I guess what goes with being empathetic or empathic. Learn to listen fantastic. Thank you much for Sarah, but I don't know if I can sum it up as well as Mark just did definitely empathy, but I think as well I think the stuff that you mentioned, which is kind off in mind with empathy, but it's having those aspirations. So I think I can use the example that I gave at the empathy summit that was run by the care. Leave a covenant on it. Wass. If you have five superheroes, and they all have a cape around their back. And, unfortunately, one of them, the Cape, might be a little bit tor kn it might be a bit then my out of shape and instead ofthe looking down on that superhero that has the bent cape instead ofthe maybe walking past the superhero with a cape, it's actually reaching out. I'm thinking, maybe, or, I contend, an hour actually sew up that hole or actually stopping in thinking the cape isn't that bad, you know, it just needs a bit of a freshen up. So I guess it's just bringing the notion that sometimes I think the aspirations of Children in care are overlooked. So it's just like Mark said, Stop, listen, empathise on. Actually, once you give them that hand and maybe fix up their cape, there will be off in a way and probably do very well. It's a fantastic, inspiring note to Wendell Mark, sir, I wish I had five hours. Thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure and an honour to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the chance to thank you for listening to this episode of third Millennium Education. I'd like to know what has been your biggest takeaway from this conversation. If you did enjoy this episode, do hit the subscribe button to continue to receive future episodes broadcasts. If you would like to be interviewed or you know somebody who would be good to interview, please also get in touch. I hope you'll join me on the next episode, and together we can carry on the conversation to ensure that we can best meet the needs of Third Millennium Learners employers in the country. Thank you again and see you on the next episode.

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