Third Millennium Education
Third Millennium Education

Episode 16 · 6 months ago

Mark Rogers, Executive Director at Collaborate CIC and Zarah Printer, Board member for Care Leaders Covenant Advisory Board

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Welcome to another episode of Third Millennium Education. This week we are so excited to have a special episode consisting of two guests, Mark Rogers and Zarah Printer. We are going to hear from their view on the current education system, and the importance of supportive educators and caregivers in their lives, and how they benefited from it.

“One of the main things that I hear from young people over and over again, we actually want to be heard.”

“Love should never leave. Represent the fact that when your childhood and your adolescence is disrupted, it doesn't mean that you don't need what every child needs, which is somebody to love you and care for you and to never stop doing those things.”

“Caregivers and educators are supposed to be somebody who's rooting for you, supports you, challenges you but never gives up on you. And that's the challenge. And that's what the covenants really are.”

“We need to be empathic in our relationships. And we need to be relationship focused, because the evidence shows that it helps children to be more successful.”

“Two main things need to be focused on, understanding the needs of children that they look after. And tailoring the educational system for this cohort.” 

I'm delighted to be hosting thispodcast. Third Millennium Education. It's a collection of thoughts andinspirations of stakeholders within education. What is education for? Onwho is it serving? This's a podcast exploring state mandated education, itsrelevance impact and how it can best meet the needs of third millenniumlearners. Employers on the country. My interview. Exciting people who have haddirect experience of education, whether you are a parent, training to be ateacher, a policy maker and academic or an education innovator, nobody workingattack. There will be something for you. I'm your host. Zanna hopes I am delighted today. Teo, welcome up.Rogers on Zara, printed to the third millennium podcast market, started lifeas a teacher moving on to fake teacher on now going into national governmentand now is the director general, Andre said Children services alone. I'm surehe hasn't much longer title in Jersey on DH Zara printer, who is about aPlease become a board member for the Care leader Covenant Advisory Board,but also work for the Department of Education in the department forChildren in care. So both of you bring a wealth of experience about youngpeople in care as well as the education system. So I'm really looking forwardto having a lively debate and discussion with you. But let's go for asoft opener. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about your experienceof education, the sort of personal elements of your experience ofeducation. I'm gonna be made and I'll start with you more great. Thank you.So I'm going to share three quick reflections really? About what shapedmy view of education when I was in it, as well as when I kind of went back in.It actually is a teacher on DH. The context for all of this is coming froma forces family where I moved around quite a lot. So I guess I saw lots ofdifferent schools, but never really, until my teens sort of got a fix onwhat I really thought about what was happening for me and for other youngpeople. So the three recollections really are these the first bond wasswhen I was 13. So I guess these days here eight came back from the summerholiday to my former grammar school, which had turned comprehensive a coupleyears before in Bedford and came back from the summer holiday to discover awhole load of Terrapin huts around the perimeter of the school site, alongwith my friends. Of course not just me discovered them, had a conversationwith our teachers about what was this, and completely to barb amusement overthe summer holiday, a school across town had closed. I mean, why would Iknow that? That was a 13 year old, but it closed, and quite a large number ofthe youngsters had been moved to our school as we saw it. Nothingextraordinary in that, except for kind of the way it was described in thefirst main assembly of the start of term, which was we should probably notmix too much for those Children because they come from the other side of town.They weren't former grammar school intake, and let's make sure thatactually are focused on our learning and all our ambitions weren't kind ofsidetracked by getting interested in a bunch of youngsters who might lead usastray, I paraphrase. But that was pretty muchthe messages was don't mix a few years later, so I had an aunt who ran a smallresidential special school in deepest, darkest Buckingham. Schiff, Summer of1976. 2nd date me on the phrase the hottest summer well, until recently, atleast the hottest summer ever, apparently because I remember that.Anyway, my aunt's is on a summer camp because it's a residential school. Soobviously, in the holidays, the answers were still there. Bought a group off 17and 18 year olds, actually, on a summer camp to just outside the village whereI lived in the north of Bedfordshire on DH. My mom clearly fed up with me,having nothing to do over the summer...

...holidays that said, You can go and helpyour aunt. You know, she's largely on her own. She's got a group of I thinkthere's any 56 young people with her kind of relieved her a bit. Don't dosomething with the young people and that something was actually containthem next door because we live next door to a pub. I mean absolutelyidyllic lifestyle for May. Take next door to the park by them some lunch.Have a conversation give you on to break, So yeah. Okay. Sort of Knew whatmy aunt did residential special school kind of had a bit of sense of that,anyway. Turned out five young people, thankfully, all 18 with learningdisabilities. And I'm kind of oh wow, what have I just agreed to? Almost noexperience as you can imagine, maps back then, of people who were differentfrom May, and there I am, kind of his. Here's the keys to the mini bus. Pickthem up, take them to the pro, buy lunch, have a drink, have aconversation and a big penny dropped about different people on then. Thethird thing to join all of that together in a way that's not toodisingenuous, I hope. But eventually, when I'd been to uni and then thesinging about what to do after university, some in my early twentiesnow I decided to go back for a year or voluntary work in the residentialspecial school. But my aunt was still out again. I suspect my parentsprobably thought I needed something useful to do because I haven't found ajob, spent a year there on, decided to go into a PDC to teach youngsters withspecial educational needs. And at that 0.1985 couple years after a formativeeducation acts the Warlock Captain 81 which started to be sort of come intoeffect in 83 immersed in inclusion thinking. So I think now is at 13. Iwanted one might not allowed to talk to other Children. At 16, I went, Wow,I've never talked to other young people like this before on by the time Ifinally got myself properly qualified and ready for work, my educational viewhad been completely shaped by. There are lots of different people in thisworld, but all of them are entitled toe having their dreams fulfilled. And weneed to provide an education system that can do that now, whether Iliterally got to that point of the age of 20 for whatever I was, I'm not sure.But as I look back and kind of reassemble it all, I can see thatgolden thread and probably where it leads me to is I'm still an agitatorfor inclusive education. I believe that we must do the most we can Teodifferentiate learning and teaching so that every single child, whatever theirstarting point, can still have hope that what they really want to be andwhat they really want to do can be fulfilled. What? Wonderful. I love theway the venerated your thread. And I suspect it's probably more truer thanyou think it is to arrive at a conclusion that Aiken passionatelyshare with you. That actually what defied this's what breaks us, and whatunites us is what will actually in Paris. And I think that's all. So I know this will get edited so youcould take this bit out. But what's really, really stayed with me is thepower of some of the thinking. I came across it just that that one year wasnot even a year. Visit PDC is like eight months, just in that short periodof time. I came for some wonderful tutors who got me to properlyappreciate that. You know, it's a cliche these days, but actuallydifferences to be celebrated values been sort out. Yeah, not be avoided.And be embarrassed about. Yeah, we don't edit anything out here. You're going rule. Sorry. Tell me aboutyour education experience. Yeah, sure. I think I will follow on quite nicelyfrom lops ending about an inclusive education system because I actuallywent into foster care during the latter part off my education time. So I thinkthe to do out folks on is probably from...

...when I went into foster care, which wasduring secondary school and then progressing into university. So at thetime, so what had happened during my gtsi years? So we're talking 13, 14years old. My mother had suddenly passed away. At that time. There wasn'ta lot of support around from anyone other than my school. So my school,actually at the time were a safety net. Almost for a year and a half, I saw offSpen staying where friends from school on their parents. I sent staying withpeople. Are you outside of school? But actually, the local authority at thetime had no sort off picked up responsibility for myself. Even thoughnow I've got records from school teachers, you know, reaching up to thelocal authorities, saying that we've got a child that's serious safeguardingrisks, you know, you need to take accountability. It wasn't happening,But I was very grateful that I had a school at the time that were takingaccountability for me because I think if they didn't. I most likely wouldn'tbe in the position that, you know, maybe I'm now working. And now theysupported me through. My GPS is my A levels, and I'm not going to say it waseasy in the slightest. I had a very poor attendance rate, especially forthe year and a half. The I didn't attend school. I had a very poorconcentration. Ray, you know, I often would know, Probably turn up to lessons.Or maybe if I was turning up, I couldn't concentrate or no, I wasn'tengaged. But the school did what they could, you know, particular teachers aswell. They did what they could. They went over and above to ensure thischild does not get left behind. And now where? I think, you know, there wereinstances they could have given up. There were instances. Maybe they couldhave excluded me, expelled me, they didn't. And they are very fortunatethat I had teachers are actually soar past what was going on there. And thenthey have to pass the here and now. They looked past the behaviour that wasmore or less true to what was going on and previous trauma. They look past allof that and they saw that. Actually, there's a child that can do very wellbut just needs a bit of support to do so. They often stayed back after school.They often if I maybe didn't turn up that day. They sent stuff home thissense of to my email address. Remember, one day I didn't turn up for an exam. Ijust didn't feel like it on this teacher took it upon herself, and again.It's probably know in guidelines. But he took it upon herself to come to myhouse on DH before that examined it. She was at my bedroom door and I wasfuming at the time. You know, I thought, God, what are you doing in my bedroom?And she says, are I want you to come with me right now because if we make itto the example before the rest of your classmates leave the exam, you canstill take it because you will not have had contact with them. They can't havepassed on the information over, and I went and I'm very grateful again, and Ithink this may have even been one of my A level exams. But it was just anexample of how they just continuously went over and above. They never on, Ithink often for Children and care. The expectations are quite limited. Peopleare quiet, you know. It's very like, well done you your one GCS e or welldone. You didn't go to prison or like the expectations, should be at the samelevel if no higher than every other pupil. So I was very grateful. You know,I had teachers telling me, Sorry, you can go to any university wanted. Youcan go toe Oxford. If that's what you want, You can go any way you want.There is no barrier stopping you. They helped me with mucus applications. Theywould just find her stick on.

Appreciate this probably times that itcould've done things better. But in the grand scheme of things, everything theydid do was enough. It got me into unit now. It was a little bit harder asactually because now I'd left foster care on DH. I had the support teachers.I had the support first to carry the disposal services. All of that suddenlystopped on. Now it was me in unique with a personal adviser. It was very,very difficult. I mean, what made it mostly difficult, I think, was theemotional side of things. So you're always you always feel different. But Ithink for the first time where I wanted to be like everyone else, it was almostlike a fresh start. It just It just didn't happen, You know, when people's parents weredropping them off on the weekends, you know, I had personal advisor, maybe aman in around dropping my things off. Nowhere, maybe financially. People weremore supported where I didn't have that. You know, I was looking for another jobfor the evening, so I was going to lectures going to work. You know, Istill wanted to go out and be with everyone else, but couldn't always.D'oh! Summer holidays in came around Christmas holidays came around onalways left with nowhere to live at times are bounced around. Maybe familymembers houses back to foster placement at times. At times I remember stayingup all night in coffee shops, 25 coffee shops just till the morning because Igot so fed up of being a bit of a burden on people. I put my storage inherself. Look, Self storage locker. So it made it a lot easier for me toe movearound if I needed to. So there was many a time. I think by the end of mysecond year of uni and I just thought I can't do this. I don't want to do itanymore. You know, I'm tired. Very tired. Why did I did buy by theSeptember I got I got up. I found myself a flat. I finished my degree onDH. It was one of the best feelings in the world. Yeah, it was incredible onDH. Yeah, I mean, Long Storey short. I then go the job where I am now. I mean,I worked a year and a half with the minister for Children and families thenworking the position I am now supporting looked on Children. Youngcare is, but I think ultimately all stem backto know the teacher's withinsecondary school That gave me that chance. That's an amazing, verypowerful and genuinely moving storeys are on DH just reminiscent of thatblack plastic bag bin liner of close. Isn't it just I don't know how manylisteners will realise that impact that you have nowhere to go in the holidaysand where do you go and where do you put your stuff on? There are many careleavers who will still today, I'm sure find themselves in very similarsituations because as much as we continue the strike to improve thingsand it's not, it's not because people have bad will or are ill intentioned.It's the fact that the system just fails and repeatedly failed torecognise those names. But what's amazing to hear in your storey isindividual teachers didn't on those people who do go the extramile. Sometimes, despite the system, I'm quite sure that actually, in thecold light of day, that teacher could have got into trouble coming andgetting you, definitely. But you might not be supporting the incredible numberof young people in care that you're supporting today. If she hadn't, I'mnot something about how we actually bring empathy on DH support andcompassion back into professions. So thank you for telling us they're on. Ithink Teo put to both of you from both...

...of your experiences and from the placesit centred you up. What would be your reflections that you think that youngpeople in care today are experiencing in education. Sorry. From your role.You probably hear a lot of that. And I imagine Mark from your roller stretcher.Children services. You hear a significant amount about that? What doyou think? Their experiences. What would they say if I was interviewingthem, asking about what's it like right now? Well, do you wanna go ahead? No, Ithink you should speak first. I think I mean, to be honest, there'sprobably a whole host of issues. I think it would be quite difficult. Toespecified a few, I think, to be honest, looking back for me and like he said,it's all the world, the role I am in on DH. You know, the stuff that I do hearabout him that I do see. I think the main thing is that people just ongiving the opportunity to these young people, you know, I think you know,it's one of the main things that the case of covenant drives on, which isopportunities. But I think the stigma around Children and care liras. I think,as I mentioned earlier, you know, around people just having those reallysmall expectations for Children and care on DH care leavers. I think weneed to be ambitious for them. We need Teo. Give them a voice almost some ofthem might know. Have one. You know, one of my biggest roles at the momentis you know, I lied on the advocacy support for Children can care leavers.And you know, one of the main things I hear from young people over and overagain is we just want to be listened to. We want to be No, but they're not onlylistened to know we want things to be done when we are being listened to. Youknow, we actually want to be hard, because sometimes I think what weconfined or Children care confined is you know, you might be screaming at thetop of your lungs, but unfortunately no one is listening. And I think we canall whether that's a teacher, whether that a lecturer, whether that personaladviser, I think we can all be an advocate for these charges and givethem that voice that maybe they either struggling to voice our or give himthat voice that maybe people aren't listening I think that the narrativearound Children in care not doing well, you know, we continuously here thisstatistic off. 6% of Children in care end up in university, and I think weneed to understand why is that? And I don't think that it's these Childrendon't want to go to university, But I think there's so many obstacles intheir way on DH. I had the lucky opportunity of having teachers thatcontinuously pushed me and fought for me. But I do not think that is theexperience off Children care across the board now. I wish it wass Yeah, I wantto come back, Teo picking up on some of those and some of the issues that youngpeople in care face on, then some of the things that we could do to maybechange that. But your reflection would be helpful as well. Mark, before we doa little look back there, you know? So Zara said a number of things that Ithink I probably heard every day for far, far too long. So the firstreflection from me and it draws from what Zara's said is there's a phrase weuse in Jersey It's not embedded it all yet, but we're trying to get it. Sowhich is love should never leave, and it's an attempt to represent the factthat when your childhood and your adolescence is disrupted, it doesn'tmean that you don't need what every child needs, which is somebody to loveyou and careful you and to never stop doing those things on DH. The message Ihear all the time and I get lots of examples of white power is not working.But the message I hear all the time is we need to be able to fall back onsomething and something that we that...

...sincere, genuine and we need and isflexible. So to give you a really good example, because Jersey exaggerate someof the issues that Zara's talked about. So most of our youngsters will go offthe island for their higher education on. They don't go not enough going intohigher education from our care experience community, but they almostalways have to go off the island. So there's a double whammy for ouryoungsters in that they already have a disrupted life. They know having asettled home that they can call their own and loved ones around them isalready disrupted. If you then go off the island to an English university,what is their future? Come back to in your holiday because you've investedall of your emotional and intellectual energies into getting to England,getting to your university, making friends, getting settled, doing yourcourse and then you're going on. My goodness, what do I do between terms? So I come back all of the time and I'mbought back all of the time to what's the equivalent tohave being family andfriends around you all of the time when your family can't necessarily do thatfor you or in some cases isn't allowed to do that for you, obviously. And thisnotion. So the Covenant has his notion of a universal family that it's notjust a council that has corporate parenting responsibilities that itshould fulfilled to the letter and to the spirit off it. But actually, all ofus society Khun take that responsibility as well to create adifference but equivalent arms around all of ouryoung people. That's what we need to strive for, and Zara's experiencedconnects with mine in one particular sense. I think is important because ourexperiences are also very different. But it connects him one reallyimportant sense. I can tell you the name of the teacher, my mommy too, ifyou like. But I tell you the name of the teacher who made that differencefor May. It wasn't the same difference that needed to be made for me. That wasmade for Zara. Miss Robinson did not come round my house and I'm on mybedroom door and get me out of bed. But she did the equivalent for May. Shemade me want to g. O and complete my education and have the highestaspirations for myself. And she picked me up after some poor O levels so thatI got some good A levels and good enough a levels to go to a gooduniversity and get a good degree and then go into a post grad as well onit's the same. In that sense, she never gave up. Ah, no, I think that'sprobably the broader message for me, which is we have to find other wayswhen our young people can't necessary get this from their family or eventheir wider family and Friends group. We need to find other ways that stillprovide that, because you always need somebody who's rooting for you,supports you, challenges you but never gives up on you. And that's thechallenge. And that's what the covenant's about really is. What arethe other ways off? You know, ensuring that love never leaves a young personwhen the most usual way of getting love is through your family and your widerfriendship group. But that's being disrupted for whatever reason. Andthat's why listeningto Zara her experiences are very different to mine.But they're also exactly the same. She had somebody in that school who wasprepared to get I don't care what the rules are. Frankly, I'm going to go andknock on a bedroom door and irritates with jaggery into school and make herdo that blasted exam. So no, I'm just going to say there's a saying our onceidol, I think, in my even being from Mark Goudeau and it was that idea offcorporate parenting. But it was actually there's no enough parentingand this tutor or yeah, I think that's so true, and Ithink that there's also this far too many silos. So you sit with the localauthority that has corporate parenting rights for you, and it's very corporateand there isn't very much parenting on then the school sees itself is outsidethat so as an individual you're either making continuously new relationships,continually telling your Storey on...

...having to explain yourself to anybodywho's coming in, who might be able to do a bit of that parenting for you in away that actually I think, can make you give up on each morning to tell it. Ithink that in schools where you start to get into trouble and so your teacherthrows you out the classroom, you then go to maybe somebody who works inlearning support and you tell your storey again on then you're tellingthem to the head of pastoral and then, you know, and in that school journeykind of lost the will to try and explain why you were so foul orunpleasant or rooms or whatever to the teacher that resulted that in the firstplace, which means I think that as well as what you were saying in terms of howschools connect. I think sometime and how young people Sorry, don't get hurtand particularly care, Lee was. Don't get people in care. Don't get hurt, butI think there also comes a point where you stop telling you are asked to tellso often. And so you do sometimes end up yelling on. I wonder if there'sanything that either from your experience in the covenant or from yourexperience in schools, if there's anything specifically that you think weshould be doing because I hear from you, we're not setting the aspirations hardenough. We're not doing enough to understand the disjointed nature ofyoung people's and cares experience, and therefore we're not doing anythingto try and bridge fat on that. It is luck. Whether you get a teacher, itsticks you like glue or north. So is there anything systemic that you thinkwe should be looking at an education? So I've got opinions, as you'd expectthen, bearing in mind my background. So working all of my teaching career wasworking with youngsters who, I guess in other people's eyes, attracted a labelyou know has had additional needs, special educational needs. So that wasmy background, and I worked in specialist settings as well, too. Sospecial schools on one of the great experiences of working in that bit ofthe education system wass the expectation off. What? I guess we callit pastoral support don't weigh, but the expectation that you needed tocreate the conditions for learning not just go straight to learning. So one ofthe views that continue to hold its, especially as things have changed overover all of the years that they have changed a lot. You know, I'm old enoughto end the introduction of the national curriculum, for goodness sake. But asthe creek clams got tighter, you know, assessments got stronger, things havegot squeezed and pastoral has got squeezed. It may be the pastor was notthe best word these days because I think what we need schools to bay arerelational institutions. And I think we're much more talk about theimportance of relational working rather than Peschel working. Maybe now, But ifI had a bunch of money and I was a secretary of state and I had somediscretion on its on where it went, I would reinvest significantly inlearning and development for professionals. Both teachers and socalled non teaching style for their cause. Everybody's teaching on I wouldboost the ability of an institution like a school, to provide thatrelational experience for all of our Children. So that's all of them, gotthe benefit ofthe that broader and balanced experience off school, whichinvolves things that aren't just formal learning, whether that's academic ortechnical vocational. So that's definitely something that I would dobecause I think that would be to the benefit ofthe everybody. And then Iwould continue to listen, as I both doing sometimes have Tio Tio youngpeople and old young people like Zara about on what golden thread to theythink works for them because I don't think that this isn't the so called onesize fits all thing. But what kind of continuity is needed to help? You havesomewhere to go and feel supported and challenged on When can that change?Because going to university is not the...

...same as going to school. So when is itright for things to change but still happen? Support for you, But my viewsare really clear. We need to be empathic in our in our relationships onwe need to be relationship focus because the evidence shows also thatthat helps Children be more successful. Yeah, and I think that that wholerelational approach is so important because I think we've become veryobsessed with hitting the targets and education, and that is our focus onwe've hit the targets and we've entirely missed the point on. The pointis about helping young people to develop all sorts of things, whetherthat's a love of lifelong learning or whether it's in fact just the abilityto cope with the day to day and never to be challenged. So I never to baycomplacent in the challenge about high expectations again. My experience ofworking with lots of young Kim I was close enough to work from two through 219 years of age during the time I was in schools. Not all in the same school,by the way, and every child's gone ambition on DH, they're different andthey should pay. But our job when we're kind of paid professionals, our job isto never lose sight of the fact that we want to know what the ambition is, andwe probably want to challenge them to raise it as well, and that matters somuch because we know that where that you've just said about testing haven'tused. If you set your sights at that level. A nine these days of whatever isused to be in a Stein, and I was fortunate enough to get a old fashionedGrade A, B and C in a few things. But if you set it at sea, then you mightget one. But you might know that if you set it on a star, we know, don't youthat you might get in a or you might get an eight or whatever these days,It's so so important to have that challenge in the system that says, Comeon, Are you really, really, really thinking ambitiously enough, your youngpeople, only they can taken all perform and they can all achieve. Yeah, yeah,certainly my, my head teacher didn't believe I fought and achieve and toldmy mother that I would amount to nothing. I think that shortly beforeshe threw me out her school permanently on one of those pairs kids as the whenI eventually through securities route anywhere, eventually became chair ofoff stead. My mother actually went and done stole her grey. He expecting like like you won. Weshould let Sarin. And so you ended this hours or so I have about this. This iswhat makes a difference. And I know it's personal. And you say youshouldn't make policy out of anecdote nor that kind of stuff. A case as wellas Miss Robinson, who gave me a lifelong love of history and made me dowell at school when I didn't even know I wanted to. The head teacher at theschool also. Fantastic guy. Mr Cornwall. I don't even know what is other names.Where's Mr Korman? Over succession of weekends in early 1979 took groups ofus in his car to various universities round England and said, If you workhard and get your finger out, stop mucking about some of you Ugo here andI went to the university that he put me in the back of his car with a couple ofothers. I went to that university because of that. Yeah, What would beyour voice? What All your sort of equivalence of the relational emphasisin schools. What do you think would make the difference to care, Lee. But Kyoung people in care. To be honest, I think what was spot on to things that Iwould draw out from what Mark said, One of them is around. I think, you know,building the past world or support. I don't think enough people in schoolsare trained well enough to support the needs ofthe Children in care. I know wehave. You know, we have to safeguard designated safeguarding leads. You know,we have designated teachers. We have wealth offices. You know, we have awhole host off them now, but I'm not...

...too familiar with how much trainingthey don't what that training it is. But I do know think that there isenough people within the school that well equipped to deal with the needlesChildren in care. Andi, I think the training should also not be specific tothose designated teachers. If I'm in an English class on DH, I'm having ameltdown. I, my English teacher, needs to be well equipped to either raisedthe issue or deal with the issue. It shouldn't just rely on that particulardesignated teacher, so I think definitely more training, training andtrue my training in mental health training and, you know, justunderstanding, almost like a day in the life of a child in care. Justunderstanding some of their behavioural needs and just yeah, I think definitelythere needs to be more just in terms ofthe understanding, this cohort. And Ithink when I look back on times I remember there was a time I wanted togo to a particular university when I've completed my A levels, you know, and Iwas very happy with my levels, but I didn't get the grades to get into thisuniversity. But then when I looked back and I thought, you know, I was proud ofthem because I spent days and days out of education, why spend days and dayshaving to deal with other stuff? No days and days may be dealing with grief,days and days, deed and wave moving houses. The University of time, eventhough I wrote on, did not take that into consideration. But then if I goback a little bit, and when I think was it fair that I had to sit the same examas everyone else. So I think there's a little bit understanding. Is the systemitself fair? I don't think there's an easy solution to this, but what eyeslooked back? And I think there were times that my extenuating circumstancesshould have been considered where they want. So I think that the main twothings understanding the needs ofthe Children that they look laughter on, Iguess. Tailoring the education system for this global, you know, even sixmonths ago what you're talking about about taking into account people's gapsof learning, for whatever reason on adjusting them would have been, you'vebeen told it was an unthinkable thing. And yet every teacher in everyclassroom who is putting together their centre assess grades for the youngpeople these years are doing just that right now on your I doubt very much hasbeen put into play to think about. How does that impact for the young peoplein my school, who I already know, don't just have the disadvantage of time lostto learning through college or time lost to learning through a temporaryshutdown due to isolation. But actually hang on a minute. What about thegeneral time lost to learning for every kid in care was on their fault schoolwho has made me had the same school but 10 homes on. I think that perhaps witha fair wind and maybe a different secretary of state for education. Butonly I can say that we might actually be able to learn from what thisterrible pandemic has taught us, that we can be flexible, that we can look atthe whole person and the whole set of circumstances on make regionaladjustments and still be able to identify that we are. Those peoplecould still have the same aspirations. And when they get there, they will dowell and they won't be massive, great gaps because they may well be contentneed for catch up. But if you've worked with these young people to give themthe skills they need, they can make it. I'm very aware of the time, and I'vetaken so much of your incredibly valuable time already. So if I just goto you with some brief closing thoughts about education, about young people,about young people in care, Mark, let...

...me start with you. What would yourclosing thoughts bay? A really simple one. You've used the word already once,and so have I. I think the most powerful human behaviour to nurture anddevelop is the one of empathy that, first and foremost, whether we'retalking about young people with care, experience, an additional learningneeds, living in domestic violence, whatever, any of or any and everything.The most important thing you can do is a human, let alone a professional istrying. It's cliche, isn't it? Stand in their shoes, look through their eyesand clear your mind when you do that to try and removal the conscious andunconscious bias in you. That is the most important thing I think we can doon. I guess what goes with being empathetic or empathic. Learn to listenfantastic. Thank you much for Sarah, but I don't know if I can sum it up aswell as Mark just did definitely empathy, but I think as well I thinkthe stuff that you mentioned, which is kind off in mind with empathy, but it'shaving those aspirations. So I think I can use the example that I gave at theempathy summit that was run by the care. Leave a covenant on it. Wass. If youhave five superheroes, and they all have a cape around their back. And,unfortunately, one of them, the Cape, might be a little bit tor kn it mightbe a bit then my out of shape and instead ofthe looking down on thatsuperhero that has the bent cape instead ofthe maybe walking past thesuperhero with a cape, it's actually reaching out. I'm thinking, maybe, or,I contend, an hour actually sew up that hole or actually stopping in thinkingthe cape isn't that bad, you know, it just needs a bit of a freshen up. So Iguess it's just bringing the notion that sometimes I think the aspirationsof Children in care are overlooked. So it's just like Mark said, Stop, listen,empathise on. Actually, once you give them that hand and maybe fix up theircape, there will be off in a way and probably do very well. It's a fantastic,inspiring note to Wendell Mark, sir, I wish I had five hours. Thanks so muchfor your time. It's been a pleasure and an honour to talk to you. Thank you.Thank you. Thank you for the chance to thank you for listening to this episodeof third Millennium Education. I'd like to know what has been your biggesttakeaway from this conversation. If you did enjoy this episode, do hit thesubscribe button to continue to receive future episodes broadcasts. If youwould like to be interviewed or you know somebody who would be good tointerview, please also get in touch. I hope you'll join me on the next episode,and together we can carry on the conversation to ensure that we can bestmeet the needs of Third Millennium Learners employers in the country.Thank you again and see you on the next episode.

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