Third Millennium Education
Third Millennium Education

Episode 12 · 8 months ago

Lord Victor Adebowale, Co-Founder & Chairman of Visionable, Chair Social Enterprise UK

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week, we have Lord Victor Adebowale, Co-Founder & Chairman of Visionable and Chair of Social Enterprise UK. We are going to hear from his view on the current education system, and stress how personalised learning can benefit minority youngsters in many ways. 

“Firstly, we don't value teaching our teachers enough to give them the inspiration. Secondly, we should think about education, not exams. Lastly, we have to give our kids enough experiences so they can make credible choices about their life now.” 

“We ought to be just a bit more expansive. Our education is lazy, thinking that our children will come out of an education system with the ability to manage people or understand the world of work or be creative.” 

“If the school hasn't got the time and the resources, kids will act out in other ways. It's logical since children have been forced to go to a place where they feel terrible and their intelligence is not being acknowledged.” 

“A lot of the kids in pupil referral units were highly intelligent kids who worked out that the system didn't care about them, so they weren't going to care about the system.” 

“Education is important for society because it's the best inoculation against ignorance.”  

I'm delighted to be hosting thispodcast. Third Millennium Education. It's a collection of thoughts andinspirations. Stakeholders within education. What is education for? Onwho is it serving? This's a podcast exploring state mandated education.It's relevant impacts on how it can best meet the needs of millenniumlearners. Employers on the country. My interview. Exciting people who have haddirect experience of education. But whether you are a parent training to bea teacher, a policymaker, an academic education innovator, somebody workingthat cheque, there will be something for you. I'm your host. Victor. Welcome to the Millenniumpodcast. I'm delighted to welcome Lord Victor Adebowale here today, Who is thefounder on up until very recently the CEO turning point a very substantialmental health charity on he also cross bench peer current director to socialenterprises. He's the chairman of N HS Confederation on developing a portfoliocareer. I know you picked up quite a long time now. I'm interested in yourviews as a separate of education, as a parent, as an employer, but also fromyour perspective off having influence as a peer of the realm on in terms ofwhat we're doing right in terms of policy. So why don't we kick off by youtelling me a little bit about your own education experience? I'm gonna take itfrom there. Okay? Just a couple things that I wasn't the founder of TurningPoint. So you asked me about what? By all the experience of education, I wasalways, to be honest with you, our found education, the process of beingeducated at school, sort of disappointing, actually. On the reasonwhy I think that is that most things be inspired me as a kid, and I learned asa kid, I taught myself I know I knew I...

...had to go to school to get exams.That's what they told me. But nobody really explained to me about school wasfor on. And I ended up having a notion. Butit was the kind of it was separating out. Those kids that were gonna make itfrom those kids that weren't, you know, like 11 plus was a kind of a culling.Um, and that's how it was put to me is kind of a culling of all the poorBoston's that didn't didn't make it, and then all the ones that were gonnabe invested in, went to the grammar school. My brother went to grammarschool, but my experience off E I was I was a secondary modern. I mean, theythey stopped doing that just as I got into that. But I wouldn't have gonethrough the 11 plus anyway. I mean, I'm no, I'm not on exam person. I've doneexams, passed exams. But I'm not one of these people that think that exams tobe only way to test someone. And I'm always struck by how people in seniorpositions have those senior positions on thestrength of a levels that they do the 18, but then got them into someuniversity that didn't agree. And now we're 2 50 something with the chiefexecutive of something on. The presumption is that they establishedtheir cleverness at the age of 18. I'm like, really, you know, I just Iexplain the state of some of our it doesn't make it never made sense to bein that sense. I think it was because I wasn't. I was in Ireland. I canremember the teachers that inspired me and there was like to you no one was myEnglish teacher, Mr Donnell, who introduced me to poetry even though itwasn't on the curriculum on me. Over wass on Ari Teacher who introduced withphilosophy neither which run the curriculum. So I've read around, youknow, already Immanuel Kant, Karl Popper. None of which was, you know,but they're both of them sent to me. Yeah, but to get through the exam,you've got to do this. It was like, really? And then what? I saw reallyclever kids that didn't get anywhere. I...

...mean, really smart kids. And you knowwhy? Nobody put their arms around them and said, You know what? You're reallysmart. You could go to Oxford or Cambridge or whatever is that? Thatdidn't happen to those kids. The only difference between smart kids and notsmart kids, really is that the smart kids, the kids that go to Oxford andCambridge, which nothing wrong with Oxford and Cambridge, by the way. Butgenerally somebody's put that arm around them and said, You know what youknow, so it's more look in process, and it helps if you white. It helps ifyou're middle class and it helps if you're born. If you look enough to beborn with a good mind. But being born with a good mind in and of itself doesnot guarantee progress through the education system. And in that senseI've always felt disappointed of it. And indeed, that ceiling was proven outthat what I just said. The crew went out by the sudden trips to do the pieceof research that showed the poor kids who are really smart, really smart bythe age of seven are over taken by basically not so smart, rich cribs.Which explains things about society, actually, absolutely. And I think yourpoint. I was disappointed by my education, or did I just completelyfail to engage with it properly? I don't know. But I remember my oneoutstanding teacher and she with my biology teacher, and I only had it fora year. Absolutely amazing woman. What was then the experience for yourChildren? What did anything do you think? I think there's never really acomic, I think, not really. I mean, it'sinteresting. You see the kids Ehrenberg remember after lots of people have saidto me, you know, they presume that my kids have gone to the private schoolbecause remember, that's loads and wed me and my wife. Disgusting. We justfelt, actually, there's a school around the corner from the jobs away. Are wereally going to drive past it? Because we don't think that school's goodenough and withdraw our skills as educated parents from that local school.And while allowing the kids that don't...

...have the same resources to go to thatschool and in a sense influenced the local community and indeed society.Before now, our kid's gonna go at the local school. My wife became thegovernor, and she turned that school with the help of others from a failingschool to an outstanding school in two years. And it is an outstanding schoolon our kids benefited both. I think my kids are a bit like me and my wife.Really, That's not really said this about the kids. They're smart, they area bit, but I think they are smart but curious and the questioning. They'remore leaders and followers to be honest, and that doesn't always aid you in thesystem because the system doesn't reward leadership. It rewards followingit rewards pick kids and basically the hairdo is that old to clip the black,you know, Don't ask too many questions. Do what the teacher says. Learn by rote,passed your exams. My kids could do that and they've been care by. Butthey're also equally disappointed. It's like really? Yeah. Teachers couldn't be only inspiring,while others are inspiring because the system doesn't inspire features thatexperience into Sim and I find back. And they also experienced really smartkids that have their own put rabbit. You know, I put my arm around my kids,but it's kind of disappointing. And it's worrying from a societyperspective, because in a meritocracy we should be putting our arms aroundthis clever kids, not just the ones that have got the smart parents or theright colour. I'm one of the worst things that's been cheque to us. Thisis by people upset the kids to private school is well, you know it's all rightfor you. You've got the networks. Look what going well, what they mean byabout said to my my wife, actually, what they mean by that is I'm gonnapair to send my kids to private school. Not because the education, becausewe're mixing with other kids who will have networks that will be useful tothe and I will be mixing with parents.

They will have networks that may beuseful for them. And I think there's some truth in that. You know, you pay30 grand, pathetic it to a private school. You're not just pay for theeducation you're paying for access certain guarantees, but we've gotaccess. You also get a more often not not always, but much more homogeneous abunch of young people and certainly my own experience and my own kidsexperience on. I'm sure your kids experience and yours was the richnessfor them was the everybody's that they met from there that gave them access. Tio talked withtalking. You know, expansion is I wish I hadn't had, obviously, but actually, I'm delighted. I do ittalking about. I agree. I mean that my kids are educated in the full sense ofthe word on DH. Khun relate to everybody, but let me just come back onthat very quickly. You know, if you send your kids to an exclusive school,you don't give a monkey's about. That's precisely why it's just that they don'tmix with the likes of the riff raff. You know, if you said you came throughit to an exclusive scoop I remember. I just tell you this little, very littlestorey I was doing some work on a mistaken and regeneration of state.This is absolutely true. There was a coach turn up on Mr Stay or what I waswhen it wass on DH and the member of the Royal Family call and it was it.Bill recognised this. Remember? I won't say we will, And it basically was acoach from a very possible public school and they would do in the fieldtrip on this field trip was to this estate in Scotland, didn't I? Look, now,you know, basically, you know, people live, you know, people who will nevermeet unless it's on. You know any of them, not just the royal familymessages on a royal visit or unless one of the very wealthy kids on the coachand, you know, drunk somewhere by era, you know, they get shoved out the planewith a parachute land in the middle of, but it it was literally a field trip,But like a geography field trip to have...

...a look at these things. That's hismirrors Most of them were going to get I know I'm l people have gone fromWe've gone from private school called two University Quad to the TreasuryQuad. You know, that's that happens a lot that's normative for a lot of itwas only a couple of steps of potential different quotes in most of ourpolitical leaders at the moment. I rest my case. So is it is it is No, I've gotnothing against, You know, I've got good friends who sent my kids to veryexpensive private schools, and I'm not having you know that they're doing thebest for their kids within the concepts that their understanding about theworld work. So it's like my little Johnny's going to get the best, whichmeans he's gonna mix with the people who condition the Lego and except forexactly. And I get letters. I get emails from people that I know saying,you know, can you fix up my kid for an internship with a bank or whatever,because they know me and I've got a network, you know, Will you slop my kidinto advertising or whatever, and that's what that's what we think it'sabout. And I say no in the fight got internship because to the kid hasactually got some grit. Could mix with all kinds of kids who's meant to winand failed, you know, was rounded as a human being. But I think there'ssomething missing if you don't have around that understanding of how theworld works. Onda had quite a lot of your achievements and the team on theplate, which isn't saying the other works are your exams because you havelook, you know, exams tough for everybody. But what if you look at thestate funded education as we have it in this country? You really identifiedthat the poorest young people often people from black and minority ethniccommunities, those young people already have a disadvantage? You've identifiedthat you don't believe the school system is doing anything to level thatplane failed, not systemically mill as systemically. Actually, I'm not sayingthere are individuals who d'oh so that...

...actually their disadvantages get morepronounced throughout. Absolutely, totally. What can we do to change before we comeon? What's working? What could we do to change that because that is what I amfundamentally passionate about is that we have to get to a position wherepeople who weren't born with access to the networks that you talked about whodon't hear the kind of language we're using now in the home. So they havethat language around necessarily have that support. Actually, for me, thevery essence a state funded education should be about giving them the thingsthat they are missing. In all the talk we agree with, how do we do it? So I think, first of all, you know, thequality and standard of state education should be such that if you want to sendyour kid to an expensive private school, fair enough, you're not gonna get anybetter value. Basically, that's what it should be. That's what we should. Andso for me, there's a couple of things. One we should really value teaching. Wego on value teaching or teachers enough to give them the inspiration and reallydrive their expertise at pedagogy and inspiration. And that's the first thing.Secondly, we should think about education, no exams, and it'sinteresting that Colby, those toys, this is an opportunity for us torethink assessment because Andi indeed teaching it's interesting that theprivate schools have been doing online at home online teaching since Marchlast year on Little Lord. Former Eye turns up with these, and some of themturned up to the lessons in their uniforms, and they are taught now andthey are taught and they've got the resources and the accent. It almostthat a lot of what schools do doesn't have to be doing the classroom. But thesocialisation doesn't need to be good at school, and that's what we need tothink about. You know, how do we create that consciously think aboutsocialisation? You know, sport, are all that Is that the thing that school does?And how do we inspire learning in kids...

...in such a way that their continualearly not just on the exam but are inspired to learn? Basically, that'sthat's the key thing. And the third thing is, we have to give all kidsenough experiences so that commit credible choices about their life. Nowon DH. This is important because if you are a middle class kid, you know, Ifeel the sun on door a member of the House of Lords. You're gonna be exposedfor things, But a lot of kids, just like, No, they're never gonna like whenI was a kid, the idea of somebody going to Oxford. Okay, something on telly.But I didn't know anybody. You know, Build a statue of somebody went touniversity. Was like, What? You know, this is a big have no experience off,right? The chancellor of the university, Visiting Professor, University of theArmoury Doctor. It's coming out. My ears. And those universities should begiving orchids. No kid should leave. I don't know, secondary school withouthaving an in depth experience, Experiential process, off work,university, you know, so that they really get to see the possibilities,not just what's in front of the door. I absolutely love starved, but we have tovalue teachers because we have been quitting teachers into this constraintoff milestones of knowledge, of imparting knowledge in getting backsize chunks without actually letting the Medicaid. Andi, let's agree on yourroad poetry. So I love that I love what you're saying. I've had other guests. Irecently talked about saying things really carry on talking about this needto really expose people to the world of work. Yeah, I was interested in whatyou said as well about how you assess differently. So as an employer now,you've been an employer of a very large organisation. If we don't have thestandard hit or miss in exams, you're...

...five g fifties in English, a massivetwo levels, university degree. How you knows an employer? What do you need? Anemployer? Well, currency to show the world? Well, it's OK, so it was acouple of things. One. I've talked to a lot of employers. I was on thegovernment's from a series of employment skills advisory boards, andwhen I talk to employers, a lot of them would say that they got kids that werereally good exams. Brilliant. But they have no clue how to work in a team. No,in fact, a lot of employers said, I'll tell you what, Forget about the exams.Give me somebody with a violence for work. Surveillance Team building knowshow to communicate and has got strong work ethic on out. I'll do the rest.I'll do the training, and that's that's not a lot of employees sent to me. Butthe question I'm not anti exam. I'm just anti only take them. I think. Ithink some kids are good at rote learning on DH. Some every kid shouldhave. Some wrote about Mike it. This is why I object to the kind of it's beensort categorised as lefty educational theories. But I suffered from some ofthat this motion. But, you know, some kids don't have to read and read andwrite in his father bird. You know, we just have to let it all hang out, man.No, I want my kids to leave school with some discipline, some intellectual,knowing some critical thinking skills, right, being able to read them, right,being the most basic ones. Nothing wrong with that. But if it's the onlyway of assessing the kid, I'm not sure that it's very useful to employers. AndI've met kids admit young people have left Oxford in Cambridge and they'reeducated. It's the classical pianist, but you're asking him to play jazz. Youknow that's the world of work, so I think the assessments should be morerounded. It's not just about can you pass an exam it's about can you thinkcritically it's about. Can you watch your emotional intelligence like, Canyou work in teams? What do you watch? Your depth of analysis, like on thatallows kids to display a range of skills on that are relevant to the workon life. And not just one simple thing,...

...you know? Can you remember? You know,Einstein's theory of relativity? Yeah, I can. But you know, E equals M csquared. But what the hell relevant? No German. So I wouldn't know what to do with it.Exactly my point. And so I do. You know, I do think that we ought to be just abit more expansive, and I think it's lazy thinking to think if you drum akid with Latin phrases and some rote learning about English history, thatbut they're going to come out of an education system with the ability toTeo to manage people or understand the world of work, I'll be creative. It'sjust not true. I mean, it is self evident. That is not true, but it'seasy. It's easy to sell the public that lie, but, you know, kids rote learningthree hours beat some nonsense into them. on God and the really clever oneswill do Will do, will do classics, you know, like really got it. I think you're I think you're right.Almost in order to affect change in the system, I think we have to start at thetop with what we need in the skills that employers are looking for on. Thenwrap those around the system to because that will drive the change in what weteach you have a so long as we remain hooked on Horan exam system only whichwe've had to do away with now for two years. Well, exactly. Coming orsomething? Then Wei will miss, you know. But I think I also think that thedanger, you know, a collar and others have written about this. There is adanger. You know, the fact of the matter is, when you ask the question ofour assessment, I'm drawn to the fact that there is well researched evidencethat there is a bias against black kids when you don't have objective examsmarking. And in fact, there's some evidence that when you do when peoplehave African or foreign names to get...

...the get mark less certainly that casemedical education. So you do have to have assessment process is that arevalidated and tested and Khun B. And can be challenged because we knowthat the current system actually mitigates against black kids. So I wasa bit bored and said, All we're gonna do it by feature assessment reallyadded, Just like a bit of peer review of that process. Because, you know, Ihave met racist teachers who will mark the black kids down or will notencourage them in the same way there were white kids or, you know, andthat's that's worried. So we just need a more sophisticated approach and moretransparency. I certainly agree with you about is over orc over racistracism within the system, and you only have to look at exclusion figures. Well,there you go that being born out particularly. I think you haveprimaries collusion figures is very worried. It is deeply worrying, andyoung people are for a whole variety of reasons that behaviour is notunderstood. Perhaps their language isn't always understood. If they'reEnglish is their second language on men, for you know, much more of the point.We've identified object racism you just look at those exclusion figures. Ithink you're right. But there's more worrying things. I mean, this is the XO.Now, what you've got is this thing off rolling where? Where poor families arepersuaded that there, kid, you know, perhaps this isn't the best place forJohnny. You know, perhaps he should be home schooled while I'm gone. But theapparent left school at 13 and terrified of education. But you'regoing to get those kids hubs, and it's just a way of getting them off the offthe out of the school. But still, you know, saying, Well, we haven't excludedyou, but we've offer old you now the responsibility of the fair, and I justthink that's terrifying and that's happening a lot. And I'm in some ways,I don't blame the schools because they're under tremendous pressure todeliver performance stats against a...

...very crude evaluation of their abilityto teach kids. And of course, when that happens, those targets Dr Behavioursthat mitigate against actually educating kids. And I just one morething that's particularly relevant. Two kids who have dyslexia or on theautistic spectrum, the teachers, the education just doesn't have the timefor those kids. It's like, Sorry, you know you don't fit. And yet some of mygreatest discoveries and some of our greatest entrepreneurs have beendyslexic. And on the autistic spectrum, Well, I don't think I'm on the spectrum,but I don't actually think I got permanently excluded and thrown out ofschool because I'm dyslexic. But I know it didn't help the fact that I couldn'tread until I was 12. Well, I can guarantee you so. One of the things weknow about this Lexie Aries there's no it's no indicator that glowingintelligence. In fact, the opposite is the case on a lot of very, veryintelligent kids a dyslexic Andrei get. They're very frustrated because noone's helping them understand how they will learn better. And if the schoolhasn't got the time and the resources to do that, those kids will act out inother ways, and I don't You know it's logical, you know, you're being sentinto being forced to go to a place where you feel terrible where yourintelligence is not being. That knowledge helped assisted or otherwiseacknowledge. Well, so you're going to do I mean, basically that za guaranteethat you're going to behave badly because effectively, you beingkidnapped for five hours a day. I'm sorry. It's not unusual to findhighly intelligent kids acting out because that from that point of view,this is pointless. Why don't you go to a place unless you forced where youwhere your suffering, that's that's just not logical. And I did some workis the chair. I showed them the new crime prevention, but I did a lot ofwork on Cruise People Referral Unit head. There was nothing pupil referralabout them. They were abandoned. All hope for you. You enter here and Ivisited a lot of those places and some...

...of the smartest kids I've ever met within those places. And they were there because they were basically not matureenough to navigate the system didn't have the contact contact to people whowould never get the system for them or with them, but were dumped in a placewhere their intelligence was basically ignored. Four against very belt. Theyrebound, sometimes violently. Now I'm not saying that there aren't some kidsthat are just bad but born, but they are very rare in of kids with behaviouror personality disorders. But a lot of the kids in pupil referral units werehighly intelligent. Kids who worked out that the system didn't give a damnabout them, so they were going to give a damn about the system. That's thatintroduction to the world, Thank you very much. So you started to point because I don'tdisagree with anything you're saying on. He started to point it some solutionsvaluing teachers, reimagining the curriculum and the assessment system sothat they are not so really based on in your exams. But based on criticalthinking team playing those sorts of things, thinking about, I presume, thetraining for teachers so that they can understand how better they can puttheir arms around people from different backgrounds. What other solutions mightyou have? Where do you think technology might fit in this piece? Well, I mean,I'm I'm the founder of the technology companies. I'm kind of I'm notechnologies, but I am a fat. I understand what I understand. These twothings. Eight million people that have access to decent broadband, 1.5 millionkids. That's the ones we know about. I think you can double that figure, don'thave access to the kinds of instruments that we're using to talk to each other.The promise that caused by Kobe to ride every kid with with some sort of laptopabsolutely well, there's two things. One that hasn't happened. And second,leaving did happen. A lot of parents can't afford the broadband costs or theother data costs a disappointment. We are breathing a generation off, veryfrustrated and kids who don't have...

...access to basic technology so they canexplore the world and learned. And the other countries where broadband coded90% 95% is excellent and every kid has a laptop. It's like having a pen youwon't have A You have a laptop in the same way you have a pen and we arebreathing. A massive divide is really frightening on DH and is very worried,you know, these days I remember my son when he was seven. I showed him youknow, those telephones with the wind up douse that we used Teo and he waspassionate. He was pushing. It cost me 8 to 7. Everything's a button, right?And the point is that is the world that they are understand of a girl, and theylearn through that were on the idea that we have an education system thatis still based on pen and paper on going to a school and roller. It's justnonsense. It's dangerous nonsense, and I just think it's almost a requirement.Basic requirement of education system Every kid should have a computer fullstop period. There should be. Every kid should have access to broadband,regardless of their parent's ability to pay. I mean, it's just basic stuff theyshould have basic access to, even if not at home. When we sit up technologyhubs in every neighbourhood where a kid can go and use a computer andunderstand what it does on the idea that we're not doing that in thiscountry are telling, is terrifying. It truly is on the cove. It crisis is anopportunity to reset their on. Actually, some of these technology companies thatare making billions billions on the back of flogging our kids, our kids,mind candy and sometimes worse than that mind cracker. Call it. We shouldbe taxing them and forcing them are encouraging them to contribute toeither providing free broadband or free data on DH. Indeed, free computers. Andif they're not doing that on your way,...

...you know we're not going to give youaccess to our society because you you're sucking out Dracula's Yourdigital Dracula and I feel really strongly about it. I think it'sabsolutely outrageous. It's the scandal, actually. Well, certainly three or fourof the big names have finally stepped up and are offering free data. TeoScoop Teo, young people that schools identify who are disadvantaged and calmaccess data. But I agree. I think it has to be a much more study. I think ithas to be a stay and look not have a digital must look. Yeah, look, you know,some some some, of course, the will, because they want to be looking goodone, by the way, is ever so the idea that the, you know Yeah, well, youhappened to be looking. Kid will get spotted by a teacher. You might getsome free stuff. This is a This is a government policy issue. This is astrategic intervention that says every kid should have a computer. Everythingshould have access to broadband every kid should have access to data. And ifthere's no available at home because of the work situation or the Web, then weare going to invest in digital hubs where every kid can go cold libraries.Actually, where every kid can go on day will be supervised, you know, so thatyou know they can get access to the exactly the same the technologyeducation experience that every other kid he's got. You know, the nextEinstein is going to be a blackhead. You know, it's gonna be some kid who'stryingto invent the future on a bit with a pen and paper. And I don'tbelieve that we are organised to spot back kid and help that kid, and as aresult, it's gonna fall by the wayside or it's going to be some of the countrythat does it, and that is, that's just not good. That's your futures. You know,we're talking about your future we're talking about How can you know, havekids with It's just astonishing. I think that there is research that showsthe increasing percentages of young people having access to smartphones,which is brilliant because they're...

...little tiny baby neuters. The problemis that actually, they're never on because speaking, I got no data, nostomach, no better, but also relation. You can't learn the basics of physics.Algebra, chemistry, ailment. Let me in. Smartphone. You need a computer. Youknow, you need to learn programming skills. You need to learn how theInternet works and how to be safe on the Internet. You need to be able tocommunicate with the friends you need to be able to. There's a whole load ofthings that you need to be able to do that you can only do on on a computer.You know, a smartphone won't cut it on DH. The idea that we haven't got thatsorted in 2021 in this country should shock is all. Frankly, it is a failure.It's a strategic and operational failure. Andi is gonna condemn a lot ofkids to the scrappy. I couldn't agree more, and I think the digital dividehas really been exposed dreadfully during this locked down. But we haveyoung people access to physical activity stuck in tower blocks. No ableto get out. You know, I just I just feel that the device is get in the 21stcentury is worse than when I was a kid. Actually, Destin, Yeah. I mean, I thinkwe're on the edge of creating destitution. But I also think that youknow, the opportunity of this crisis to rethink education permanently shouldn'tbe missing. And people talk about Let's get back to normal. Well, who's normal?You know, I think an opportunity for us to actually get better. Um, and thefact that I just think it's a bit cynical to say we're gonna provide kidswith education with computers and men. You don't You don't, um, and believingit toe look instead of strategy, but that sound a bit pessimistic. Iactually think that there is a growing demand for better Kam parents, Um, andsome of the kind of canals of being...

...exposed. But we gotta fix this. Wegotta fix this technology, divide these two getting too big on DH. I guess what we can't do. Andthere's a danger here that what you get is what I'm all right, Jack. Approach. But we're all connected now. Andthere's no way that the kid around the corner who doesn't have access to thisisn't gonna have an impact on the kid, but does I mean look at what'shappening in America right now? You think most people who were with bravingthe capital I've got access to be medicated and talk now? No. Now the thing about education that'simportant is that the reason why it's important for society is that it's thebest inoculation against ignorance. Absolutely well, things have been acomplete pleasure. Thank you for your cries. Thank you very much. Very much. Your new career. Thank youfor listening to this episode of the Third Millennium Education. I'd like toknow what has been your biggest takeaway from this conversation. If youdid enjoy this episode, do hit the subscribe button to continue to receivefuture. If you would like to be interviewed oryou know somebody who would be good to interview, please also get in touch. Ihope you'll join me on the next episode. And together we can carry on theconversation to ensure that we can best meet the needs of Third MillenniumLearners employers in the country. Thank you again and see you on the nextepisode.

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