Third Millennium Education
Third Millennium Education

Episode 15 · 8 months ago

Deborah Eyre, Founder of High Performance Learning


Deborah is Founder and Chair of High Performance Learning. Her career has focused on helping students reach high levels of cognitive performance. She created the High Performance Learning organisation to engineer a system-change in educational thinking so that we start to accept that most people could be high performers and structure schools accordingly.

“It gave me the chance to really begin to understand and do serious research into how the most successful learners think and learn.”

“How do we systematically build brains?”

“Schools that have adopted High Performance Learning, they just can’t envisage going back to any other way of doing it.”

“We need to prepare them for things that are likely to happen. We need to build this kind of disposition, where people feel confident to have a go and unworried if they don’t get it right.”

I'm delighted to be hosting thispodcast. Third Millennium Education. It's a collection of thoughts andinspirations of stakeholders within education. What is education for? Onwho is it serving? This's a podcast exploring state mandated education, itsrelevance impact and how it can best meet the needs of third MillenniumLearners. Employers on the country by interview exciting people who have haddirect experience of education. Whether you are a parent training to be ateacher, a policy maker and academic or an education innovator, nobody workingat tech there will be something for you. I'm your host, Zanna hopes Welcome to Deborah Air today. I'mabsolutely delighted that you're joining me for this podcast decorouslyfounder and chair of High Performance Learning Services LTD. Aunt has heart.I industrious career in education. I won't say for a very long time becausethat would building it there. But certainly to say you are steeped inexperience. I think would be true welcome. Thank you. I'm just reallydelighted to be here and to have this opportunity. So thanks so much forinviting me My absolute pleasure. What is? It's not just getting a sense ofyour education experience and then sort of leading into what led you to set upa High Performance Learning Services LTD. Yes. So I suppose I started lifemany, many years ago, is a teacher and then senior leader in schools and thenthat sort of talk into local authority advisory work on. There's a sort ofI've always been kind of really interested right from the beginning,right from the first moment that I started training, I was interested inhow Children think alone someone I was in the classroom. I was, you know,fascinated by why some people could do this easily and some people couldn't on.Actually, I've spent an entire lifetime trying to understand it on, and Iwouldn't say I truly understand it now. I think I understand it better than Idid, but it's just a GN endless journey of discovery. So when I was working inmy own school that I was already investigating and you know, kind ofdoing that practitioner research, which I really think it's really powerful forteachers and I really encourage all teachers to, you know, not just thinkabout their workers doing work, but actually enjoying that kind ofunderstanding of what could happen. So as a result of that, I was invited tobe part of the local authority. Actually, under at the time, the localauthority in question, Oxfordshire was run by Tim Brick House. So I canimagine it was quite innovative in terms of its thinking. And I was, Ithink that's interesting in terms of people's careers. There's a lot of luckin what happens to you. And I was lucky that I was part of a set of peopledoing a lot of really interesting thinking within a box feature. Ana, Ispent quite a bit of time in Oxy Chip, but I decided, really wanted more timeto spend thinking about researching. And so I swapped for the H E sector on.I think that was really good for May. I was interesting. I found working withBeginning Teacher is much more difficult than working with existingteachers because they seem to want all the answers on. I was reallyinteresting working with more challenging existing teachers who kindof there were You can pull the wool over their eyes. If they didn't thinkthis really worked for them, they'd say so. But anyway, give me the chance toreally begin to understand, to do serious research into how the mostsuccessful learners think and learn, And that's being a kind of lifetimeinterest for me on at the beginning of doing all that work, I kind of thoughtthere was a subset of people who they could operate in a way that most of uscouldn't on there called, the more able, the gifted or whatever they're calledover a period of time. I kind of came to the conclusion that maybe theyweren't a subset of the population at all. That's actually how people get todemonstrate these high levels of performances is a bit more complex thanall of that. But I spent time in the H E sector and both as a lecturer in theresearcher and also manage your leader in that sector on. Then the governmentcame along with this big initiative about what they want to call gifted andtalented, and so I ran that for them out of the University of Warrick forfive years on DH that may I was responsible for policy across allschools in England. On it was an interesting chance to see a verydifferent side of education because you're seeing the big policy side ofall of that on what the levers are that make the changes on. Also, I'd have tosay that it taught me that things that you, I think quite a good idea, can bekind of mangled into something else. When they go through the policy machineinto everybody must have a kind of a teaspoonful of this in a teaspoon fullof that, I found that quite frustrating experience because kind of I was sayingI thought people should have more challenging opportunities But then itbecomes just kind of quantified by how many opportunities that people haverather the quality, what they got, and... anyway. But that whole period was avery interesting period for me in terms of give me a different a really highlevel kind of helicopter view like you had seen when you were sharing Officer,that you've got this come helicopter view of what's happening across thesystem in a way that's quite particular on. At the same time, we were alsoundertaking some quite detailed research on how these very highperforming students performed, but the end of it all, I felt that myhypothesis of being kind of lurking away there in the background was evenstronger, which was that I don't think there was a subset of the population.Actually, I thought that really, if you really got down to it, this wasprobably replicable. You know, basically, why people came out as beingparticularly effective was partly about the opportunities they've had. Thesupport that they had had a key points on some part is their own personalmotivation. So I was given a study leave by Warrick Study Leave Year byWorry, which was really nice and generous. And I went off at some timein Hong Kong with colleagues on, did a big piece of work looking across thewhole field of gifted and talented for Routledge and produced a full valuebook, which was, I didn't write war four volumes. What it was was acompilation off the seminal texts for the field for the last 30 or 40 years.And so contributors from all over the world on that entire process reallyconfirmed for me that it wasn't that there was a subset. There isn't one.Secondly, that the most effective learners. Do those real consensus aboutthat globally different phrases or words might be used, but the actualunderstanding of it is pretty well established on DH. So if it wasreplicable, I thought we should be more ambitious about how many people couldget there. So in 2010, I produced a think tank paper which caused a bit ofa stir in England for policy exchange, which where I said that at that timeEngland was very committed to trying to identify the potential of individualstudents and put them on the right flight path on I said, Yeah, that'scompletely wrong. It's in the wrong direction because I think what weshould be doing is the polar opposite of that. We should be really saying Wethink we've got, you know, kind of raw material. Everybody's got the rawmaterial, and how do we build that in such a way that as many people aspossible could can really do well? So having published that, it met with afabric of controversy. There were some people who said, You are don't like anyof that and the world people said That's really intriguing and you'vereally evidenced it. It's really the evidence is really compelling. But whatkind of what would it look like? And so I found I went into a period of my lifeeducationally, where people kind of when they were approaching me and I wasbeing appraised by governments all over the world asking for advice and supportand sour. They wanted to talk to me about what you did with the subset ofpeople that were there. And I was saying to them that in all the rightway to look at it, you need to look at it in a different kind of way. You needto look at it about how do we systematically build brain's had webuild brains. So I put all of that kind of so that was kind of challenge withWell, so what would that look like in a school? So I put all of that togetherinto something which I call high performance learning, which isbasically a codification of what we know about how you get to success. Whatof the competence is you need to really become? You really need to master as alearner in order to give you the kind of to say, prosaically, the kind oftool kit to enable you to do well on DH. I then sort of finish up with anopportunity to do a bit fieldwork on that because I went to work as theglobal education director for an international schools group on becauseI was responsible for education. One of the things they're principles wanted todo was play around with my ideas. So we did that, and I think the outcome ofthat was it. It was more successful than I might ever have dreamed on DH.It made me think I'm onto something here, you know, it's not that I've hadthe most world shattering idea. It's sort of just grew over time. But Iwanted to spend the last part of my education career in working to makethat happen in schools so that we established a different way ofeducating, which is more progressive and more optimistic. And over this time,if you think I published my paper in 2010, originally room at the top forpolicy exchange, at that time it was quite far out. But now, in 2021neuroscience means that we have a much better understanding that the brain'sexquisitely plastic and we can build it. So there's less hostility to the ideathat we're beginning to move away from the idea that you know people havefinite levels of ability and potential and beginning to be a bit more flexibleabout that. But I guess the problem for the education system is how do you movefrom what's being established over a long period of time into new space? Soyou asked me, Why did I create High...

Performance Learning Services LTD. Verylong answer to this. But the answer is because at the point at which I wasthinking about all of this, I had a kind of really similar conversationwith my son on. It's only your kids that Khun tell you straight on DH, hesaid. Look, he said, You know, great idea, Really. It's really good. Peoplelike it, etcetera. But you know, you could spend the final part of yourcareer doing lots of other people in your position. Do you could join theconference circuit, fly business class, stay in posh hotels, have a really goodtime by said distinctly clear about its schools again to listen to it. They'regoing to Oman. R yes, that's really good idea, but nothing is going tochange. So if you want it to change a roll up your sleeves and get stuck inso five years ago, that's what I did, and we created this organisation on.Now we have kind of fast increasing number of schools across the globe whoare working with this H. P. L. Stein of education, which basically underpinswhat they do in terms of teaching and learning that after so swap out ofother doing and do something different, it strengthens on depends. Optimise it.I created it, but it's on the pin. By this culture, the research evidencesuggests everybody could be a high performer. So, you know, let's stoptrying to pigeonhole people as being You're never gonna make it. You're thiskind of a personal that kind of person. Lets just start building, and the moresystematically are, the further we should get and doesn't look into thedetails of the How'd you do that? I think what you're saying is reallyoptimistic on interesting, because certainly around 2010, I was gettingvery frustrated with young people being put in their swim line. Yeah, we'llswim, Linus. Fixed and permanent exclusion. Your swim lady like myself,you know, registered with learning difficulty. I might be a couple my ownShort from Ryner or your swim lane is gifted and talented on. I just thought,you know, we gotta get out of this kind of swim Blaine concepts on. Do you knowthere was all that dreadful focus for years on this? Such a d to seeborderline, which have nothing, could've been further removed from highperformance that all we need to do is we need to get you in that swimmingjust marginally twitch of you from getting a deer gps. See to getting ascene, I think actually exciting you in your own ability to learn. So I I'vebeen Obviously, the reason you're here is I've been a fan of your two years on.I'm really enjoyed what you've been doing on the several several things Ireally like about it is that you yourself have refused to pigeonhole.You don't just work in the most deprived schools in the most deprivedareas with the most difficult challenging young people on equally.You don't just work in very elitist global, international, highly expensiveschools. You almost live your philosophy. Don't leave that thereisn't a swim lane on. We are all going to do brilliantly well on that, I thinkhas been really enjoyable. And I've seen people implement high performancelearning in really genuinely very challenging schools and in very, verysuccessful schools that actually, frankly charged a lot of money foryoung people to be able to be educated there. So why don't you tell me alittle bit? You had to sum up what is high performance learning? In anutshell. How'd you put that forth? In a nutshell, it's a philosophy, and it'sa framework on. The philosophy is that we genuinely believe that everybody hasit within themselves. To become a high performer on a school should organiseitself in that expectation. So instead of putting people in swimming, and youshould be looking at, what are the barriers that is stopping people fromachieving on removing those areas on? It means, in practical terms, thingslike, if you're going to put students into sets, do not give your bottom seta kind of a destination which is inferior. If you want to put them insets, they've all got to go to the same high level destination. Some Khun go bya different route or take longer, but basically do not institutionally committhem to an inferior destination. So the philosophy whilst is not what I reallywant to say is It's not just warm words. It has to shape what you do in yourschool. But that philosophy, being explicitly in the school, is reallypowerful with students because on with stars as well with staff, it means thatthey have to discipline themselves to stop thinking. You know, thatparticular child over there in the corner of the room that never doesanything much. You know, they're never going to do anything much and thinkthat child is a potential high performer. And you know what's going onthere? What we going to do about it on? For students themselves, Self efficacyagency within students is part of what makes it happen, And it's Bardo is oneof the reasons why in disadvantaged areas, students don't have goodaspirations in some places because they just don't believe it of themselvesbecause you knew I recently, I recently...

...just give you an example of this, and Irecently we're going somewhere with some wonderful multi Kannami trustingleads the White Rose academies on DH then really committed to the idea ofbetter outcomes for the students I serve. And when I started, I said, Youknow, when I'm introduced to you, I'm introduced with someone who's aprofessor, and you've got a kind of image in your mind about you know who Iam, where I came from about, you know, I was born in Leeds on at the time ofwhich I first started school. You know, that wasn't the image of me. I didn'thave that image of May. I just knew I couldn't spell. Well, you know, thatwas the thing I knew about myself. What school told me about myself. With allthe negatives on DSO, my own perception myself was the artist wasn't reallyvery good on. So you know this kind of question of how do you get a sense ofself? It's a really interesting because its shape not just by school, but byhomos. Well, obviously, but in a high performance learning school wereshaking that image of yourself, which is very optimistic in which means thatif a student you can't do it now, you know it's no. Never is, just not yet.So that philosophy is like the backdrop tau house schools operate. But havingthat kind of philosophy is in itself insufficient because it buildsexpectations. But they could then be dashed by the fact that it doesn'treally happen, you know? So I believe it. You know, I believe I could, butnothing's happening. And so what we did what I did was to identify those too.Two pipes of competences that you need to be able to exhibit if you're goingto function well, cognitively so you can be successful, you gotta be able todo these things. One sort is about ways of thinking. They're nothing kind ofbrand new, are unknown, but it's about doing them deliberately andsystematically. In a way that means that Children experience and more sothe ones that the ways of thinking, which we call the advance cognitiveperformance characteristics the A C piece. They're things like metacognition, meta thinking, linking ideas, starting with a big picture. They'realso about creativity. They're also about logical, flexible thinking on. Sothere's a set of those that their 20 offthe um under in five groups on thensitting alongside them are the values, attitudes and attributes like empathy,hardwork, agility, a child thinking on DH. You know, sometimes in schools,those are seen as the soft skills, but they're not. They are inter looped, andI usually describe them as being like the double helix. You know, theinterdependent once no good without the other. And so what you want is peopleto be operating with both of those. So we have 10 theeighties values asstudent attributes 20 a CP, and they're grouped into age groups in total on gun.In essence, the simplicity of it is all the school has to do is this. They haveto make everybody aware that those things were in court, so they made them aware that they'reimportant in as many ways as they can. The visual they talk about to becomethe language for teachers. You have to incorporate opportunities for people topractise them in their lessons. So just part and parcel of their everydaylesson. They have to think of ways in which they can make them happen as pastof their lessons on DH. Encourage students to use in themselves andreward them when they do. So. You know, if you want to teach someone how toself regulate, for example, you need to start by firstly saying that selfregulations import path being successful if we keep making the samestakes, then when they were going to get anywhere. So how do we selfregulate? Well, some of that's about kind of self knowledge, but some ofit's just you can encourage that in the lesson. That's what I mean. It's verysimple. There's no one way to do it. A typical example would be that, you know,you could say Okay, we're halfway through this lesson. Let's stop. Okay,everybody, I want you to talk to you. I want to talk to your partner about howdid you approach this task? You know, on. Then we can have a carrier groupdiscussion about you know which strategies worked, you know on thenThen actually say so now we're going to do the second half of the lessons. Areyou going to make any changes to what you're doing? That self regulation Okay,So what you're trying to do is get students through their experience ofthis, to understand it so that they do themselves on DH. What we kind of tosay about it is that you need frequent a regular practise. So if that means itneeds to be the language in every subject, on every age group in theschool. So it's just there all the time. What you find with students is therebecomes very confident, very empowered about, and they talk about it. Theystill say, You know, I need to I can't find a way through that. I need tothink of it more flexibly or, you know Oh, that's a bit like something we didlast year. That's kind of Connexion finding on it just becomes very simpleand straightforward for them. But what's interesting for me in terms ofdoing it is that when I started out, you see, I was just totally focused onthe students in terms of what they were...

...doing, because I'm passionate aboutstudents. But what's emerged is it's a great way to teach, and teachers reallylove it because it's not like somebody's have the world shatteringidea. and you have to ditch everything you've been doing up to now and teachit by this set of, you know, kind of regulations. And you know that you weretalking about the swim lanes. You know, I think we also went through that wholeperiod of this one right way to do it. And you have to learn how to do thisplay, and we'll come along with our cheque. Got clipboard and shit whenyou're doing it right or not. Actually, what we know for research is thatmissed teachers, if all the way of working that works for them on, theydon't move very far away from it in the course of their career. So if you wantthem to do something different, my experiences that first you have tothink it's worth doing. But secondly, have Teo instead of it being aprogramme that you do, you just have to say these things I want you to achieve,go and figure out how to do it on G. It's really so rewarding both theteachers and knew for people like myself that when they start doing thisnot seeing goodness man, you know, that person said something I never expected,you know, kind of. It's a bit of a virtuous circle, and I think all ofthis sort of idea is it creates this sort of positive environment, the staffon DH for students And that's why you know, kind of staff that work in aschool that has adopted high performance learning when they moved.They want another age field school. They just can't in village going backto and the other one doing it. And for me that, you know, I think in terms ofis it easy? Well, it is easy. You just have to get itself into understanding.You know what you're trying to achieve in figuring out how to do it, and thenit's very easy, and I think it's almost like by the time school has been doingthis for a while, they almost don't even think about its high performancelearning. They just think this is the way we do things around here, andthat's what I wanted to achieve is a switch in the way that schools think on.In order to get that, you have to get some schools earlier. Dr. School'sdoing good work. I hope that. You know, if I leave a legacy, it begins to chipaway at the way in which the whole system works. Because I think there'slots of people in, you know, every sort of if I switch to, let's say and rushShire or a very seedy, for example, or Massachusetts and shoot or that sort of,you know, lots of big thinkers saying This is the direction of travel.Broadly, we need, you know, to prepare our people better, to thrive inunexpected circumstances, etcetera, etcetera. I guess high performancelearning is what I've done. It's just if I make a contribution, is that I'veco defied that agenda to make it possible. So you know, I've actuallysaid This is what you have to do is a school to get into that space. It'sprobably not the only way in which you could get into that space. But it isone way, and it's the way that it works. And, you know, I think all of thatstems back from my kind of early beginnings of you know, I'm inveterinary luxurious about how to make things work in school. I think thatfocus on the how you learn or even how you teaches, you say impacts onteachers equally roles just just this relentless focus on content on thesecrets of imparting content, which is really in many subjects. What ourcurriculum has become, if I imagined for uncertain for the teachers I talkedto have used it is incredibly refreshing because, actually, even ifyou're not quite convinced about the content of the sequence of the contentthat you are teaching, you can become incredibly convinced that young peopleaccelerating and learning on that they are developing a methodology for doingthings that is lifelong and it is incredibly transferrable. So, actually,when you get into your first job, whether it's an apprenticeship in a car,mechanics or it's, you know, you come out with your degree and you know thefast track programme at one of the Big Four, the skills that you've acquiredin the way that you think an approach things are lost in, and that's true andyou know it's not that I think it's a sort of the contents unimportantbecause actually, if you've got a really good curriculum on DH, it's ademanding curriculum in actually in itself, it enables the development ofsome of the especially a C piece. They come more naturally in a more demandingcurriculum. About what you don't want is a curriculum where it's just subjectknowledge with no ability to use and apply that knowledge. And you know, weknow this because we know there's some research across the globe that theirson countries, for example, in some of their high performing Asian countrieswho have bean brilliant and subject knowledge for a very long period oftime. The struggle has bean in using that knowledge in a way which ismeaningful on DH in England. Our reputation on the global stage is thatwe're better that they're using and applying. But that doesn't mean thatthat's necessarily the case. That's just the tradition that we kind of comefrom in reality, we often on our kind of national policy making. We've gotthis kind of big pendulum swing between... thing and another on basically thecurrent thing. Wass you know that so we're always over correcting is what wedo, which is so we established that we've got a particular issue problemsso you know, for example, we have a problem about new, worsened interested.So we put in the national strategies to tell everybody have to do it. And itworked in some places, and it didn't work so well in others. But what it diddo was put a cap on excellence because there was a sort of If you come up withsomething really mechanical, it sort of gives you adequate outcomes. But hedoesn't give you excellent because it shuts down the creativity and thepeople, the teachers, that would bring you that kind of accidents. And then wedecided that, you know, well, actually, we then had a really sharp focus inEngland on the results. On the consequence of that, some schoolsstarted to adopt practises that were utterly I just don't know what theywere thinking because it wasn't just the CD borderline which, like you, youknow, drive me crazy. But it was even, you know, I was sat on the advisercurriculum might agree frosted when they were looking at revising theframework. You know that wass really seriously evidence of schools thatreally it did exist. Schools that taught the same text in English in your789 10 and 11 in the hope that they would do well in the exam in Euroland.Well, that's just such an impoverishment of education, you know,it's not education, is it? I mean, I just can't understand how we could havegot to a stage where people really felt that that was an acceptable thing to do.You know, they must have felt so driven by, you know, it just felt so under thecosh. But anyway, I think that the curriculum piece was anotherovercorrection in that I think it was really important to bring curriculumback Morton for But they're not at the expense of polarisation in the waywhich always seems to happen in England, which is, you know, So now we're in akind of subject knowledge versus skills kind of debate. Well, it's both, isn'tit? Saying so you know, kind of. Why is it that we have to keep, you know, kindof going down these tracks where we're sort of like so now you know, we'vebeen doing subject knowledge for you three or four years as being the keything. Everybody's into subject knowledge, and then somebody will comealong a Sonia, but this limitations in that, and then we'll overcorrect inanother direction. And I think one of the things I think you know is powerfulabout H. P l. And it's even had just driven my career ready is that I'mevidence faced and sometimes the evidence that you find on itssubstantial evidence I don't mean just one little study because quite a lot ofthat around Earth, actually the overall evidence base. Sometimes it'ssurprising it's not what you thought, but when it is selling conclusive. Youknow, I'm just acting on the evidence, and I think that that what we you know,kind of if we want to move forward, we want long term sustainable improvementin what we do on rather than these sort of, you know, kind of short termism.Andi, I'm always amused by its work with the Hong Kong. Come on, we've beenworking on something of the point of wishes. Chap retired that he'd beenworking on it for about Oh, I know 12 years on, and I said, You know, it wasvery impressive that you needed stuck with it in policy terms for that long,and he said, Well, it barely started heavily, he said. You know, there was abig change to make, and it takes time. You know, you can't just suddenlyexpect to see a significant sustainable results immediately on when we've beenworking with schools on HBO. You know, I think there's a couple of things thathave been really interesting in response from schools in England,particularly on one of which is that you know, how fast were we see theimprovement? Well, you will see the improvement, but it's cumulative overtime as you get better and better at this. But you know, we've been in thisfive years were introduced six years for the schools that started with us.In the beginning. There got record breaking results year on year on year,and that includes some very high performing schools who have broken newrecords themselves. Basically, why is that the case? Well, the answer isbecause the simple proposition is that you get better and better at helpingthe students if you teach, become high performance. So the better you get atthe process, the more people go the distance and therefore your resultsnaturally keep going up. So kind of what's not to like in all of that. AndI think I think this other thing is that we overcomplicate education, youknow, kind of un in England. We've managed to make it really dull. Youknow her? I was like, Yeah, but goodness sake, unit for students andthe staff of everybody else is like, you know, we're million yuan this andwe've come around that clipboard on that. And you can you demonstrate thefollowing. And I think a really good example for me about that is aroundCove it that you know this complete obsession with lost time in school. Andobviously it's not a good thing to have lost time in school, but learning isn'tlinear in that kind of way. So, you...

...know, if you go back into school andyou're really energised and enthusiastic by not having been inschool for a while, you'll learn that double the speed. So you kind of likewe always want everything to me reduced to such a kind of were so negative inthe system in England, which is naturally so pessimistic. So we've justgot another thing to be pessimistic about. Now we've got a lost generationthat may never catch up on. And I wrote a piece about this rascal to say, Youknow, before we take a look, you know, I think they do really good work.Haskell, before we, you know, kind of get really running off after that asbeing, you know, kind of another major problem. Let's just remind ourselvesthat we've always had in schools people who, for one reason or another, missbig chunks of education. So, you know, three typical reasons. One, they'resick and they're out of school because they're ill for long periods of time tothey come from a culture where they may take time out of school and go back tothe Indian subcontinent or wherever, for a period of time or three. Somemore affluent middle class parents, Gotham take that. You'll not find a gaphere to experience the world. Well, none of those groups have had reallyserious impact on their long term outcomes if the learning when they'rein school is really good quality. So, you know, I think we should be focusingmore on the quality of what we do when they're there. The you know, kind ofkind of being count on exactly how much time they spent there again. You know,it just feels like sometimes in policy terms, people kind of they lack commonsense about it. You know, you see it in front of your own eyes. But to saythat's why for me, it was very interesting that the period of my lifewhere I was close to all that decision making because I can under what drivesis that you know, when you're trying to, when you're trying to influence bypolicy. But what you're trying to do is ensure equity on DH. It's all wellmeaning, um, well intentioned. But in a way, although everybody talks about,you know, kind of handing more responsibility down to schools, in away, we've moved in the opposite directions and that over a long periodof time in England, where schools are not, you know we have to just It's notthat I have any problem with regulate, and I think that's absolutely right andproper. But we sort of created a sort of idea that the that schools there's ametric around the fact, and it's not just regulators. This is the whole sortof culture which is that? You know, people can't quite be trusted to do itright. Whereas I think in many other parts of the world you start from anarea of we trust our schools. That doesn't mean that we don't monitor them.Course we do, because we need to be assured that our trust is well placed.But we do start for the kind of trust, Whereas I think in England were justconstantly kind of looking for the things that are wrong on. Maybe that'smedia. Maybe that's, you know, partly the media in terms of it makes a goodstorey. I don't know. I certainly agree that it is felt in schools and you know,colleagues and friends of mine have been teaching. But decades actuallyfeel genuinely feel the erosion on trust and respect in their abilities.On that, until that that has been taken away. And it goes back to your pointabout a lost generation of young people. We sort of practise on this deficitmodel where we honestly seem to think that if we keep weighing the pig, itwill get fatter. Strollers went to feed little piggy on what we need in termsof nourishment actually is much more positive. I mean, the constant drip ofyou haven't done it right. You're not able to grade. You're not able todecide. You know what the grades or what the outcomes for this young personshould pay. You need to do this, You need to do that. And we constantly getaway. You and you know, says the woman who did chair off 75 years, I think itunless we get back to that sort of sense of trust and accountability onthat sense, are actually working to an asset base model. These young people,instead of saying what they've lost, it's not what they got on you thoughtabout. What did you gain from having a unique experience in your year at thattime that was covered? It may have been ghastly, but what skills did you gainfrom it? I'm not least fun, but let's try and look at what the positives were,what with the strength rather than I mean, you know, I go, but still I havesome friends who are young enough to have Children in school where hers minereal, grown up on their kids up fairly miserable they are constantly beingtold that I have lost something they'll never get back. You know, I just thinkthat that's exactly this kind of point that you know, what we're trying to dohigh performance learning schools is convey this idea that, you know, it'sjust If it didn't happen, then for one reason, another it's just not yet. It'sgonna happen. So in this case, you know, there's a certain second circumstanceswith Cove. It, you know, for some people, actually really enjoyed it. Youreally enjoy being having a bit more...

...independence and autonomy, working intheir own way because they find school quite constraining for other people.They found it quite difficult on, I think, you know. But basically what weneed to convey from the school perspective to both students on theirparents is a greater degree of confidence. So that were kind of, youknow, don't worry. We've got it in hand, you know, we've got it under control onDH. I think one of the things that's being nice for me about atrial is she,you know, possible we're trying to do is May, as you mentioned before, maybuild capacity and students so they can flourish in any kind of environment sothey can deal with whatever comes their way in the future. Actually, we havefound the students in our schools have been better able to cope with co bedsimply because there are a bit more independent and enterprising, but alsobecause, you know, they're kind of take it. Oh, yeah, this is interesting themHow do we deal with this one rather than, Oh my goodness, what should we do?And that's part of what we're trying to build in the sense of the students ofOh, take that down to the minute G I When you get to an exam on you, look atthe paper in the exam. I've done research into your lives into thiswhole question of why did some people do well in exams and some north on theReally? The answer to this is that there are broadly three kinds ofquestions in exams. There's a sort of very straightforward, settlingquestions everybody can get. There's a sort of second set of questions whichbit more demanding and replied, required to use your knowledge in someway, and most people could do this on, then the third set of questions aremore unconventional. You may not even quite recognise it as being somethingyou've learned, so you've got to sort of figure it out a bit. And theinteresting thing is that people do well in exams, can cope with that thirdsection. So you know what's the consequence is that we need to teachpeople how to figure things out. So what we want in the way that we try toeducate the Children and young people, is that when they're faced with thatsort of situation in the exam, I describe it as a fork in the road. Sowhen you read that question and it doesn't come up in the fall that youwould torch it, those two possible reactions one reaction is we didn'tlearn it that way. I can't do the question just completely. It's allgoing to hell in a hand cart was nothing I could do on their crumple. Onthe other is that you? Look at it. You think Trump's you know, we didn't do itquite like that, and then you read it again and anything, but it's a bit likeso and so So, actually, I I think if I approached it in this kind of way, thatprobably about about in the right ballpark. Now that's what you know. Wecall Connexion, finding linking intellectual confidence all of thosesort of competences that we're trying to develop now. Some people have alwayshad that. Andi is one of the reasons why in research turns, you know, inexams, boys do better than girls because, you know, in general terms andthis is a generality about. Boys tend to overestimate themselves, and girlsunderestimate themselves. So when it's in a situation where it's a bit unknown,you know, boys will take a punt on. That's what the research sort of shows,whereas girls are kind of, you know, if I don't really understand it, I can'tdo it. So what kind of just trying to do is to replicate that behaviour,which enables you to do well now if you take that is the sort of you know, thefine example. It's exactly the same thing when you put you in any otherunknown circumstances about trying tto have you in the space where you are ina space where you kind of you don't panic. You just kind of think, you know,I'm confident enough to be able to make something out of this. But if everytime in your lessons somebody has told you exactly what you have to do, you'llnever learn it. You'll never learn it. So you know, because they can neverprepare you for every eventuality. And, you know, I could get you waxed lyricalabout another world in which we live now where, you know, things arechanging so fast in all these things that we didn't know about now exists.You know, I have other kinds of things, but the reality is that, you know, it'snever been the case that we could prepare people for everything. Mm. Also,now that you know what we need them to boost its Not that you don't preparethem for any of it. You prepare them for the things you know that likely tohappen, and you prepare for it. But you also want to just build this kind ofdisposition where people feel confident enough to have a go unworried if theydon't get it right. So you know, because of eliminate. We've got thiscome penalty in education about, you know, as a teacher, all the things wecan say is you need to in your lesson, you need to reward having a go. Youknow, your view. Expressing an opinion as much is getting it right. Because ifyou don't, then people will only put forward their idea of the 100% certain.That means they're never going to be in that risk space, which 50% of the timeis gonna work out fine and give them a much better outcome. So, you know, ifwe build this sort of this whole...

...concept of everything has to be 100%right, we just don't build the kind of mind set that we really need forlearners because, you know, kind of it doesn't matter where you are inlearning whether you have sophisticated doing sophisticated, no post doctoralwork, whether you're doing you know, you're in early years and foundationsteak that will make any difference. It's always the same process, which isthat you don't you start off optimistically and it'll feel fantastic.And then you hit some barriers where you think I can work this out? It won'twork on you know, if you three you might stamp your feet. If you're 33 youmight stamp your feet metaphorically. But the kind of idea that our cards andthen you just need to be in that space of knowing only if I could, you know,Let's all now get on with it. It's good, I think, generally in the early yearsof the year, curriculum is much more focused on that. That the square thingisn't going to go in there and told however, many times you smack it. ButI'm not gonna tell you which hold. It'll go now. We'll let you smack ittill you work it out and you have a go. You have a risk. We try and get it inthe crescent shaped. You know, we will watch Children until they actually wowon the joy when they put the thing through. But I just wanted to come backand sort of enclosing because my passion is how we help get young peoplehave been put in swim ladies that are so destructive or an example a part ofexpiration through two people referral units. We know the statistical impactthat that has on their life chances. 63% of people in prison have beenexcluded from school at some point. How are you engaged with those institutionsto try and change that culture, or if you haven't directly worked in peoplereferring, it's how do you change that culture? So how do you get people outof that worst swim? Lane is a place of bringing everybody just into the topswim line. I think we haven't done anywhere yet with Cruz, and that's justpartly because H time we're working on h feel in particular context. We haveto figure out with that context how to make it work because it's not do. It'sdifferent. It's just that certain aspects of it need to be morepronounced, for example. So, for example, if I just go back to myproject in Leeds, the education had Christian, he describes it. But theidea of belief being sort of like an infection that you've become infectedwith that self belief if your parts of our schools on that it's reallyimportant that you become infected with it, because when you're outside whileschool, some people are undermining it, so we need to be you know our infection.That needs to be really, really powerful. Now you don't need it to beso powerful. If you're in an elite independent school way, probably knowall that already about yourself. You already gained a view of yourself. Thatkind of suggests that. So I think when you're talking about people whoimproves off in prison or in other kinds of places, I think that pompousif there is help, really, quite overtly be talking about the fact that firstly,about what we know about how people can develop it, So the favour you haven'tdone it now does not mean that you're incapable of doing it. And there's somuch evidence about that, right from things like the Open University, which,you know, was built on the premise that you knew you might not have done wellin school. But, you know, you still could on people have hundreds ofthousands off on, then also kind of talking about some of what we know. Wenow know, and it's sort of new knowledge. But all of this shouldchange how you think about yourself on DH. So, for example, if you know peoplereferral unit you're in that unit Because the certain behaviours thatyou've exhibited when you've been in school, which have bean unacceptable onkind of understanding that one of the reasons why most students behave inthat kind of ways because organism obviously a range of and sometimesquite complex reasons a lot of it is around the fact that, you know, youkind of you feel a sense of powerlessness. So it's just that you'reI mean, imagine if in the conventional school environment you're the bottomset, you're going along to the bottom set on a regular basis. You know,you're in the bottom set, you know that. No. Is going real expectations of youbecause you're in the bottom set. Nobody wants to be in the bottom,certainly wants to teach the bottom set on. You're gonna be there for anothersix years. You have to be pretty compliant to put up with that on DH. Ithink you knew people who don't put up with it. We shouldn't just think ofthem as being people who are somehow difficult and awkward. You know, weshould be recognising the situation in which we're putting them in terms ofhow to work on again. You know, we know so much more about things like, youknow, adverse childhood experiences and the effect that they have on differentindividuals so some people can cope with far more than others on again. Youknow, we should just be less judgmental about kind of how we make decisionsabout people. And I'm just reminded,... know, sometimes just made me thinkthat a long, long time ago in my career I was working with the local secondaryschool and I was talking. The deputy head of the student showed up late,very late for school on DH was shown on the deck. It Can you just wait a minutewhile I just deal with this on DH? He said to the student, You know, Okay, Sowhere are you in the timetable, then it's breaking 10 minutes, I think. Doyou want to go into the lesson you should be in or do you want to sitquietly, active 10 minutes and then join the next world? Then, when he cameback in again, he said, I expect you're wondering why I didn't reprimand thatstudent. And I said I wasn't wondering. I think it'll actually I said. But, youknow, tell me. And he said, Well, because they're a family that have beanthere in bed and breakfast housing on DH last week, they got infected fromtheir current and records, which is, you know, within very easy reach inschool on there Now, you know, 25 miles away on DH. She missed the bus, theschool bus that would have got in school on. He said them. She waited foranother one and he said, You know, I'm not going to punish her for being latebecause she exhibited exactly the behaviour I wanted, which was that shestopped with it and came to school. Whereas it would have been much easierjust to say I missed the bus and went home. Yeah, I think they at its best,we have loads of educators in school who have that kind of ability to thinkcompassionately and creatively and figure out. You know, I'm going to makea judgement around this because of this particular circumstance, and that's whya heavy hand from above is so unhelpful because it's like, you know, shebecomes a student. Then she was late for school and therefore yourstatistics. This child, he just figures that someone who's like the school No,I remember that in my own family that, like you, my kids of adults. Now I'mnow grandma. Remember when my son, like, didn't often take him to school? But Igave him a list of secondary school because of some reason why we'redriving in a queue of traffic in our city, and there's a bus lane on. A boywas knocked off his bike and I stopped my car to get out and stay with himuntil the ambulance came. And my son came home from school that day and saidthem, I got a late mark, he said. I explained to them that the choice wasbeing on time for school and somebody potentially dying or alternativelysticking around to help out. I'm getting a late mark. So So I've gotdetention on you. Just think, you know, sometimes we just need a bit morehumanity in the way that we work in school. On most of the time, life withmy son, it doesn't really matter. I think I just felt it was unjust andunfair. But if that's happened to you regularly and often then your sense ofhonour. Also, you know, you're living quite a difficult life at home on DH,you're having to be very resilient, persistent. Just continue then. Youknow, sometimes schools can feel like they are a bit uncompromising. And Ithink you when you get a child, then you've been a good chunk. Children whoreferred into people referral units there already, you know, had all ofthis experience that he's trying to untangle. So I think you have to helpthem reset. I know, and I'm sure that there are people who are veryexperienced at that and much more skilled than I am. I think part of thatreset is getting them to understand that you whatever has happened,whatever the background is et cetera. It. The reality is the evidence is thatthey have it within them to be potentially high performer. So, youknow, let's get back to basics and start looking at how that's gonnahappen. You know, I just think that that's the starting point, because itis, as I say, You know, just because you have it within it doesn't mean it'sgoing to happen. But you want to instil that belief because nothing else ispossible until you believe that on that belief is the key two, enabling thebuilding to occur in whatever way to remove the problems of the causing youto lose your temper quickly or whatever else it is that's causing the problem.But if you've got this sense of yourself is being worthless. Nothing.It's a just sticking plaster, anything that you do fantastic professors ever.And that was absolutely brilliant. And I wish you all the very best of luckwith high performance Learning Services might very much your next bigcontractors in people Romero in its because they actually we need to getthat sense of belief into young people. Thank you so much for your time today.Now it's been an absolute pleasure. You know, we're really interested inhearing from ambitious head teachers who want their school to work in thisway. So it's just go and look for us on high performance learning dot co dot UK.We'd love to hear from you, Harry. That's fantastic. Thank you so much.Really interesting. Thank you. Get good. Thank you for listening to this episodeof third Millennium Education. I'd like... know what has been your biggesttakeaway from this conversation. If he did enjoy this episode, do hit thesubscribe button to continue to receive future episodes. Casts. If you wouldlike to be interviewed or you know somebody who would be good to interview,please also get in touch. I hope you'll join me on the next episode, andtogether we can carry on the conversation to ensure that we can bestmeet the needs of Third Millennium Learners employers in the country.Thank you again and see you on the next episode.

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