Third Millennium Education
Third Millennium Education

Episode 15 · 1 year ago

Deborah Eyre, Founder of High Performance Learning


Deborah is Founder and Chair of High Performance Learning. Her career has focused on helping students reach high levels of cognitive performance. She created the High Performance Learning organisation to engineer a system-change in educational thinking so that we start to accept that most people could be high performers and structure schools accordingly.

“It gave me the chance to really begin to understand and do serious research into how the most successful learners think and learn.”

“How do we systematically build brains?”

“Schools that have adopted High Performance Learning, they just can’t envisage going back to any other way of doing it.”

“We need to prepare them for things that are likely to happen. We need to build this kind of disposition, where people feel confident to have a go and unworried if they don’t get it right.”

I'm delighted to be hosting this podcast. Third Millennium Education. It's a collection of thoughts and inspirations of stakeholders within education. What is education for? On who is it serving? This's a podcast exploring state mandated education, its relevance impact and how it can best meet the needs of third Millennium Learners. Employers on the country by interview exciting people who have had direct experience of education. Whether you are a parent training to be a teacher, a policy maker and academic or an education innovator, nobody working at tech there will be something for you. I'm your host, Zanna hopes Welcome to Deborah Air today. I'm absolutely delighted that you're joining me for this podcast decorously founder and chair of High Performance Learning Services LTD. Aunt has heart. I industrious career in education. I won't say for a very long time because that would building it there. But certainly to say you are steeped in experience. I think would be true welcome. Thank you. I'm just really delighted to be here and to have this opportunity. So thanks so much for inviting me My absolute pleasure. What is? It's not just getting a sense of your education experience and then sort of leading into what led you to set up a High Performance Learning Services LTD. Yes. So I suppose I started life many, many years ago, is a teacher and then senior leader in schools and then that sort of talk into local authority advisory work on. There's a sort of I've always been kind of really interested right from the beginning, right from the first moment that I started training, I was interested in how Children think alone someone I was in the classroom. I was, you know, fascinated by why some people could do this easily and some people couldn't on. Actually, I've spent an entire lifetime trying to understand it on, and I wouldn't say I truly understand it now. I think I understand it better than I did, but it's just a GN endless journey of discovery. So when I was working in my own school that I was already investigating and you know, kind of doing that practitioner research, which I really think it's really powerful for teachers and I really encourage all teachers to, you know, not just think about their workers doing work, but actually enjoying that kind of understanding of what could happen. So as a result of that, I was invited to be part of the local authority. Actually, under at the time, the local authority in question, Oxfordshire was run by Tim Brick House. So I can imagine it was quite innovative in terms of its thinking. And I was, I think that's interesting in terms of people's careers. There's a lot of luck in what happens to you. And I was lucky that I was part of a set of people doing a lot of really interesting thinking within a box feature. Ana, I spent quite a bit of time in Oxy Chip, but I decided, really wanted more time to spend thinking about researching. And so I swapped for the H E sector on. I think that was really good for May. I was interesting. I found working with Beginning Teacher is much more difficult than working with existing teachers because they seem to want all the answers on. I was really interesting working with more challenging existing teachers who kind of there were You can pull the wool over their eyes. If they didn't think this really worked for them, they'd say so. But anyway, give me the chance to really begin to understand, to do serious research into how the most successful learners think and learn, And that's being a kind of lifetime interest for me on at the beginning of doing all that work, I kind of thought there was a subset of people who they could operate in a way that most of us couldn't on there called, the more able, the gifted or whatever they're called over a period of time. I kind of came to the conclusion that maybe they weren't a subset of the population at all. That's actually how people get to demonstrate these high levels of performances is a bit more complex than all of that. But I spent time in the H E sector and both as a lecturer in the researcher and also manage your leader in that sector on. Then the government came along with this big initiative about what they want to call gifted and talented, and so I ran that for them out of the University of Warrick for five years on DH that may I was responsible for policy across all schools in England. On it was an interesting chance to see a very different side of education because you're seeing the big policy side of all of that on what the levers are that make the changes on. Also, I'd have to say that it taught me that things that you, I think quite a good idea, can be kind of mangled into something else. When they go through the policy machine into everybody must have a kind of a teaspoonful of this in a teaspoon full of that, I found that quite frustrating experience because kind of I was saying I thought people should have more challenging opportunities But then it becomes just kind of quantified by how many opportunities that people have rather the quality, what they got, and... anyway. But that whole period was a very interesting period for me in terms of give me a different a really high level kind of helicopter view like you had seen when you were sharing Officer, that you've got this come helicopter view of what's happening across the system in a way that's quite particular on. At the same time, we were also undertaking some quite detailed research on how these very high performing students performed, but the end of it all, I felt that my hypothesis of being kind of lurking away there in the background was even stronger, which was that I don't think there was a subset of the population. Actually, I thought that really, if you really got down to it, this was probably replicable. You know, basically, why people came out as being particularly effective was partly about the opportunities they've had. The support that they had had a key points on some part is their own personal motivation. So I was given a study leave by Warrick Study Leave Year by Worry, which was really nice and generous. And I went off at some time in Hong Kong with colleagues on, did a big piece of work looking across the whole field of gifted and talented for Routledge and produced a full value book, which was, I didn't write war four volumes. What it was was a compilation off the seminal texts for the field for the last 30 or 40 years. And so contributors from all over the world on that entire process really confirmed for me that it wasn't that there was a subset. There isn't one. Secondly, that the most effective learners. Do those real consensus about that globally different phrases or words might be used, but the actual understanding of it is pretty well established on DH. So if it was replicable, I thought we should be more ambitious about how many people could get there. So in 2010, I produced a think tank paper which caused a bit of a stir in England for policy exchange, which where I said that at that time England was very committed to trying to identify the potential of individual students and put them on the right flight path on I said, Yeah, that's completely wrong. It's in the wrong direction because I think what we should be doing is the polar opposite of that. We should be really saying We think we've got, you know, kind of raw material. Everybody's got the raw material, and how do we build that in such a way that as many people as possible could can really do well? So having published that, it met with a fabric of controversy. There were some people who said, You are don't like any of that and the world people said That's really intriguing and you've really evidenced it. It's really the evidence is really compelling. But what kind of what would it look like? And so I found I went into a period of my life educationally, where people kind of when they were approaching me and I was being appraised by governments all over the world asking for advice and support and sour. They wanted to talk to me about what you did with the subset of people that were there. And I was saying to them that in all the right way to look at it, you need to look at it in a different kind of way. You need to look at it about how do we systematically build brain's had we build brains. So I put all of that kind of so that was kind of challenge with Well, so what would that look like in a school? So I put all of that together into something which I call high performance learning, which is basically a codification of what we know about how you get to success. What of the competence is you need to really become? You really need to master as a learner in order to give you the kind of to say, prosaically, the kind of tool kit to enable you to do well on DH. I then sort of finish up with an opportunity to do a bit fieldwork on that because I went to work as the global education director for an international schools group on because I was responsible for education. One of the things they're principles wanted to do was play around with my ideas. So we did that, and I think the outcome of that was it. It was more successful than I might ever have dreamed on DH. It made me think I'm onto something here, you know, it's not that I've had the most world shattering idea. It's sort of just grew over time. But I wanted to spend the last part of my education career in working to make that happen in schools so that we established a different way of educating, which is more progressive and more optimistic. And over this time, if you think I published my paper in 2010, originally room at the top for policy exchange, at that time it was quite far out. But now, in 2021 neuroscience means that we have a much better understanding that the brain's exquisitely plastic and we can build it. So there's less hostility to the idea that we're beginning to move away from the idea that you know people have finite levels of ability and potential and beginning to be a bit more flexible about that. But I guess the problem for the education system is how do you move from what's being established over a long period of time into new space? So you asked me, Why did I create High...

Performance Learning Services LTD. Very long answer to this. But the answer is because at the point at which I was thinking about all of this, I had a kind of really similar conversation with my son on. It's only your kids that Khun tell you straight on DH, he said. Look, he said, You know, great idea, Really. It's really good. People like it, etcetera. But you know, you could spend the final part of your career doing lots of other people in your position. Do you could join the conference circuit, fly business class, stay in posh hotels, have a really good time by said distinctly clear about its schools again to listen to it. They're going to Oman. R yes, that's really good idea, but nothing is going to change. So if you want it to change a roll up your sleeves and get stuck in so five years ago, that's what I did, and we created this organisation on. Now we have kind of fast increasing number of schools across the globe who are working with this H. P. L. Stein of education, which basically underpins what they do in terms of teaching and learning that after so swap out of other doing and do something different, it strengthens on depends. Optimise it. I created it, but it's on the pin. By this culture, the research evidence suggests everybody could be a high performer. So, you know, let's stop trying to pigeonhole people as being You're never gonna make it. You're this kind of a personal that kind of person. Lets just start building, and the more systematically are, the further we should get and doesn't look into the details of the How'd you do that? I think what you're saying is really optimistic on interesting, because certainly around 2010, I was getting very frustrated with young people being put in their swim line. Yeah, we'll swim, Linus. Fixed and permanent exclusion. Your swim lady like myself, you know, registered with learning difficulty. I might be a couple my own Short from Ryner or your swim lane is gifted and talented on. I just thought, you know, we gotta get out of this kind of swim Blaine concepts on. Do you know there was all that dreadful focus for years on this? Such a d to see borderline, which have nothing, could've been further removed from high performance that all we need to do is we need to get you in that swimming just marginally twitch of you from getting a deer gps. See to getting a scene, I think actually exciting you in your own ability to learn. So I I've been Obviously, the reason you're here is I've been a fan of your two years on. I'm really enjoyed what you've been doing on the several several things I really like about it is that you yourself have refused to pigeonhole. You don't just work in the most deprived schools in the most deprived areas with the most difficult challenging young people on equally. You don't just work in very elitist global, international, highly expensive schools. You almost live your philosophy. Don't leave that there isn't a swim lane on. We are all going to do brilliantly well on that, I think has been really enjoyable. And I've seen people implement high performance learning in really genuinely very challenging schools and in very, very successful schools that actually, frankly charged a lot of money for young people to be able to be educated there. So why don't you tell me a little bit? You had to sum up what is high performance learning? In a nutshell. How'd you put that forth? In a nutshell, it's a philosophy, and it's a framework on. The philosophy is that we genuinely believe that everybody has it within themselves. To become a high performer on a school should organise itself in that expectation. So instead of putting people in swimming, and you should be looking at, what are the barriers that is stopping people from achieving on removing those areas on? It means, in practical terms, things like, if you're going to put students into sets, do not give your bottom set a kind of a destination which is inferior. If you want to put them in sets, they've all got to go to the same high level destination. Some Khun go by a different route or take longer, but basically do not institutionally commit them to an inferior destination. So the philosophy whilst is not what I really want to say is It's not just warm words. It has to shape what you do in your school. But that philosophy, being explicitly in the school, is really powerful with students because on with stars as well with staff, it means that they have to discipline themselves to stop thinking. You know, that particular child over there in the corner of the room that never does anything much. You know, they're never going to do anything much and think that child is a potential high performer. And you know what's going on there? What we going to do about it on? For students themselves, Self efficacy agency within students is part of what makes it happen, And it's Bardo is one of the reasons why in disadvantaged areas, students don't have good aspirations in some places because they just don't believe it of themselves because you knew I recently, I recently...

...just give you an example of this, and I recently we're going somewhere with some wonderful multi Kannami trusting leads the White Rose academies on DH then really committed to the idea of better outcomes for the students I serve. And when I started, I said, You know, when I'm introduced to you, I'm introduced with someone who's a professor, and you've got a kind of image in your mind about you know who I am, where I came from about, you know, I was born in Leeds on at the time of which I first started school. You know, that wasn't the image of me. I didn't have that image of May. I just knew I couldn't spell. Well, you know, that was the thing I knew about myself. What school told me about myself. With all the negatives on DSO, my own perception myself was the artist wasn't really very good on. So you know this kind of question of how do you get a sense of self? It's a really interesting because its shape not just by school, but by homos. Well, obviously, but in a high performance learning school were shaking that image of yourself, which is very optimistic in which means that if a student you can't do it now, you know it's no. Never is, just not yet. So that philosophy is like the backdrop tau house schools operate. But having that kind of philosophy is in itself insufficient because it builds expectations. But they could then be dashed by the fact that it doesn't really happen, you know? So I believe it. You know, I believe I could, but nothing's happening. And so what we did what I did was to identify those too. Two pipes of competences that you need to be able to exhibit if you're going to function well, cognitively so you can be successful, you gotta be able to do these things. One sort is about ways of thinking. They're nothing kind of brand new, are unknown, but it's about doing them deliberately and systematically. In a way that means that Children experience and more so the ones that the ways of thinking, which we call the advance cognitive performance characteristics the A C piece. They're things like meta cognition, meta thinking, linking ideas, starting with a big picture. They're also about creativity. They're also about logical, flexible thinking on. So there's a set of those that their 20 offthe um under in five groups on then sitting alongside them are the values, attitudes and attributes like empathy, hardwork, agility, a child thinking on DH. You know, sometimes in schools, those are seen as the soft skills, but they're not. They are inter looped, and I usually describe them as being like the double helix. You know, the interdependent once no good without the other. And so what you want is people to be operating with both of those. So we have 10 theeighties values as student attributes 20 a CP, and they're grouped into age groups in total on gun. In essence, the simplicity of it is all the school has to do is this. They have to make everybody aware that those things were in court, so they made them aware that they're important in as many ways as they can. The visual they talk about to become the language for teachers. You have to incorporate opportunities for people to practise them in their lessons. So just part and parcel of their everyday lesson. They have to think of ways in which they can make them happen as past of their lessons on DH. Encourage students to use in themselves and reward them when they do. So. You know, if you want to teach someone how to self regulate, for example, you need to start by firstly saying that self regulations import path being successful if we keep making the same stakes, then when they were going to get anywhere. So how do we self regulate? Well, some of that's about kind of self knowledge, but some of it's just you can encourage that in the lesson. That's what I mean. It's very simple. There's no one way to do it. A typical example would be that, you know, you could say Okay, we're halfway through this lesson. Let's stop. Okay, everybody, I want you to talk to you. I want to talk to your partner about how did you approach this task? You know, on. Then we can have a carrier group discussion about you know which strategies worked, you know on then Then actually say so now we're going to do the second half of the lessons. Are you going to make any changes to what you're doing? That self regulation Okay, So what you're trying to do is get students through their experience of this, to understand it so that they do themselves on DH. What we kind of to say about it is that you need frequent a regular practise. So if that means it needs to be the language in every subject, on every age group in the school. So it's just there all the time. What you find with students is there becomes very confident, very empowered about, and they talk about it. They still say, You know, I need to I can't find a way through that. I need to think of it more flexibly or, you know Oh, that's a bit like something we did last year. That's kind of Connexion finding on it just becomes very simple and straightforward for them. But what's interesting for me in terms of doing it is that when I started out, you see, I was just totally focused on the students in terms of what they were...

...doing, because I'm passionate about students. But what's emerged is it's a great way to teach, and teachers really love it because it's not like somebody's have the world shattering idea. and you have to ditch everything you've been doing up to now and teach it by this set of, you know, kind of regulations. And you know that you were talking about the swim lanes. You know, I think we also went through that whole period of this one right way to do it. And you have to learn how to do this play, and we'll come along with our cheque. Got clipboard and shit when you're doing it right or not. Actually, what we know for research is that missed teachers, if all the way of working that works for them on, they don't move very far away from it in the course of their career. So if you want them to do something different, my experiences that first you have to think it's worth doing. But secondly, have Teo instead of it being a programme that you do, you just have to say these things I want you to achieve, go and figure out how to do it on G. It's really so rewarding both the teachers and knew for people like myself that when they start doing this not seeing goodness man, you know, that person said something I never expected, you know, kind of. It's a bit of a virtuous circle, and I think all of this sort of idea is it creates this sort of positive environment, the staff on DH for students And that's why you know, kind of staff that work in a school that has adopted high performance learning when they moved. They want another age field school. They just can't in village going back to and the other one doing it. And for me that, you know, I think in terms of is it easy? Well, it is easy. You just have to get itself into understanding. You know what you're trying to achieve in figuring out how to do it, and then it's very easy, and I think it's almost like by the time school has been doing this for a while, they almost don't even think about its high performance learning. They just think this is the way we do things around here, and that's what I wanted to achieve is a switch in the way that schools think on. In order to get that, you have to get some schools earlier. Dr. School's doing good work. I hope that. You know, if I leave a legacy, it begins to chip away at the way in which the whole system works. Because I think there's lots of people in, you know, every sort of if I switch to, let's say and rush Shire or a very seedy, for example, or Massachusetts and shoot or that sort of, you know, lots of big thinkers saying This is the direction of travel. Broadly, we need, you know, to prepare our people better, to thrive in unexpected circumstances, etcetera, etcetera. I guess high performance learning is what I've done. It's just if I make a contribution, is that I've co defied that agenda to make it possible. So you know, I've actually said This is what you have to do is a school to get into that space. It's probably not the only way in which you could get into that space. But it is one way, and it's the way that it works. And, you know, I think all of that stems back from my kind of early beginnings of you know, I'm in veterinary luxurious about how to make things work in school. I think that focus on the how you learn or even how you teaches, you say impacts on teachers equally roles just just this relentless focus on content on the secrets of imparting content, which is really in many subjects. What our curriculum has become, if I imagined for uncertain for the teachers I talked to have used it is incredibly refreshing because, actually, even if you're not quite convinced about the content of the sequence of the content that you are teaching, you can become incredibly convinced that young people accelerating and learning on that they are developing a methodology for doing things that is lifelong and it is incredibly transferrable. So, actually, when you get into your first job, whether it's an apprenticeship in a car, mechanics or it's, you know, you come out with your degree and you know the fast track programme at one of the Big Four, the skills that you've acquired in the way that you think an approach things are lost in, and that's true and you know it's not that I think it's a sort of the contents unimportant because actually, if you've got a really good curriculum on DH, it's a demanding curriculum in actually in itself, it enables the development of some of the especially a C piece. They come more naturally in a more demanding curriculum. About what you don't want is a curriculum where it's just subject knowledge with no ability to use and apply that knowledge. And you know, we know this because we know there's some research across the globe that their son countries, for example, in some of their high performing Asian countries who have bean brilliant and subject knowledge for a very long period of time. The struggle has bean in using that knowledge in a way which is meaningful on DH in England. Our reputation on the global stage is that we're better that they're using and applying. But that doesn't mean that that's necessarily the case. That's just the tradition that we kind of come from in reality, we often on our kind of national policy making. We've got this kind of big pendulum swing between... thing and another on basically the current thing. Wass you know that so we're always over correcting is what we do, which is so we established that we've got a particular issue problems so you know, for example, we have a problem about new, worsened interested. So we put in the national strategies to tell everybody have to do it. And it worked in some places, and it didn't work so well in others. But what it did do was put a cap on excellence because there was a sort of If you come up with something really mechanical, it sort of gives you adequate outcomes. But he doesn't give you excellent because it shuts down the creativity and the people, the teachers, that would bring you that kind of accidents. And then we decided that, you know, well, actually, we then had a really sharp focus in England on the results. On the consequence of that, some schools started to adopt practises that were utterly I just don't know what they were thinking because it wasn't just the CD borderline which, like you, you know, drive me crazy. But it was even, you know, I was sat on the adviser curriculum might agree frosted when they were looking at revising the framework. You know that wass really seriously evidence of schools that really it did exist. Schools that taught the same text in English in your 789 10 and 11 in the hope that they would do well in the exam in Euroland. Well, that's just such an impoverishment of education, you know, it's not education, is it? I mean, I just can't understand how we could have got to a stage where people really felt that that was an acceptable thing to do. You know, they must have felt so driven by, you know, it just felt so under the cosh. But anyway, I think that the curriculum piece was another overcorrection in that I think it was really important to bring curriculum back Morton for But they're not at the expense of polarisation in the way which always seems to happen in England, which is, you know, So now we're in a kind of subject knowledge versus skills kind of debate. Well, it's both, isn't it? Saying so you know, kind of. Why is it that we have to keep, you know, kind of going down these tracks where we're sort of like so now you know, we've been doing subject knowledge for you three or four years as being the key thing. Everybody's into subject knowledge, and then somebody will come along a Sonia, but this limitations in that, and then we'll overcorrect in another direction. And I think one of the things I think you know is powerful about H. P l. And it's even had just driven my career ready is that I'm evidence faced and sometimes the evidence that you find on its substantial evidence I don't mean just one little study because quite a lot of that around Earth, actually the overall evidence base. Sometimes it's surprising it's not what you thought, but when it is selling conclusive. You know, I'm just acting on the evidence, and I think that that what we you know, kind of if we want to move forward, we want long term sustainable improvement in what we do on rather than these sort of, you know, kind of short termism. Andi, I'm always amused by its work with the Hong Kong. Come on, we've been working on something of the point of wishes. Chap retired that he'd been working on it for about Oh, I know 12 years on, and I said, You know, it was very impressive that you needed stuck with it in policy terms for that long, and he said, Well, it barely started heavily, he said. You know, there was a big change to make, and it takes time. You know, you can't just suddenly expect to see a significant sustainable results immediately on when we've been working with schools on HBO. You know, I think there's a couple of things that have been really interesting in response from schools in England, particularly on one of which is that you know, how fast were we see the improvement? Well, you will see the improvement, but it's cumulative over time as you get better and better at this. But you know, we've been in this five years were introduced six years for the schools that started with us. In the beginning. There got record breaking results year on year on year, and that includes some very high performing schools who have broken new records themselves. Basically, why is that the case? Well, the answer is because the simple proposition is that you get better and better at helping the students if you teach, become high performance. So the better you get at the process, the more people go the distance and therefore your results naturally keep going up. So kind of what's not to like in all of that. And I think I think this other thing is that we overcomplicate education, you know, kind of un in England. We've managed to make it really dull. You know her? I was like, Yeah, but goodness sake, unit for students and the staff of everybody else is like, you know, we're million yuan this and we've come around that clipboard on that. And you can you demonstrate the following. And I think a really good example for me about that is around Cove it that you know this complete obsession with lost time in school. And obviously it's not a good thing to have lost time in school, but learning isn't linear in that kind of way. So, you...

...know, if you go back into school and you're really energised and enthusiastic by not having been in school for a while, you'll learn that double the speed. So you kind of like we always want everything to me reduced to such a kind of were so negative in the system in England, which is naturally so pessimistic. So we've just got another thing to be pessimistic about. Now we've got a lost generation that may never catch up on. And I wrote a piece about this rascal to say, You know, before we take a look, you know, I think they do really good work. Haskell, before we, you know, kind of get really running off after that as being, you know, kind of another major problem. Let's just remind ourselves that we've always had in schools people who, for one reason or another, miss big chunks of education. So, you know, three typical reasons. One, they're sick and they're out of school because they're ill for long periods of time to they come from a culture where they may take time out of school and go back to the Indian subcontinent or wherever, for a period of time or three. Some more affluent middle class parents, Gotham take that. You'll not find a gap here to experience the world. Well, none of those groups have had really serious impact on their long term outcomes if the learning when they're in school is really good quality. So, you know, I think we should be focusing more on the quality of what we do when they're there. The you know, kind of kind of being count on exactly how much time they spent there again. You know, it just feels like sometimes in policy terms, people kind of they lack common sense about it. You know, you see it in front of your own eyes. But to say that's why for me, it was very interesting that the period of my life where I was close to all that decision making because I can under what drives is that you know, when you're trying to, when you're trying to influence by policy. But what you're trying to do is ensure equity on DH. It's all well meaning, um, well intentioned. But in a way, although everybody talks about, you know, kind of handing more responsibility down to schools, in a way, we've moved in the opposite directions and that over a long period of time in England, where schools are not, you know we have to just It's not that I have any problem with regulate, and I think that's absolutely right and proper. But we sort of created a sort of idea that the that schools there's a metric around the fact, and it's not just regulators. This is the whole sort of culture which is that? You know, people can't quite be trusted to do it right. Whereas I think in many other parts of the world you start from an area of we trust our schools. That doesn't mean that we don't monitor them. Course we do, because we need to be assured that our trust is well placed. But we do start for the kind of trust, Whereas I think in England were just constantly kind of looking for the things that are wrong on. Maybe that's media. Maybe that's, you know, partly the media in terms of it makes a good storey. I don't know. I certainly agree that it is felt in schools and you know, colleagues and friends of mine have been teaching. But decades actually feel genuinely feel the erosion on trust and respect in their abilities. On that, until that that has been taken away. And it goes back to your point about a lost generation of young people. We sort of practise on this deficit model where we honestly seem to think that if we keep weighing the pig, it will get fatter. Strollers went to feed little piggy on what we need in terms of nourishment actually is much more positive. I mean, the constant drip of you haven't done it right. You're not able to grade. You're not able to decide. You know what the grades or what the outcomes for this young person should pay. You need to do this, You need to do that. And we constantly get away. You and you know, says the woman who did chair off 75 years, I think it unless we get back to that sort of sense of trust and accountability on that sense, are actually working to an asset base model. These young people, instead of saying what they've lost, it's not what they got on you thought about. What did you gain from having a unique experience in your year at that time that was covered? It may have been ghastly, but what skills did you gain from it? I'm not least fun, but let's try and look at what the positives were, what with the strength rather than I mean, you know, I go, but still I have some friends who are young enough to have Children in school where hers mine real, grown up on their kids up fairly miserable they are constantly being told that I have lost something they'll never get back. You know, I just think that that's exactly this kind of point that you know, what we're trying to do high performance learning schools is convey this idea that, you know, it's just If it didn't happen, then for one reason, another it's just not yet. It's gonna happen. So in this case, you know, there's a certain second circumstances with Cove. It, you know, for some people, actually really enjoyed it. You really enjoy being having a bit more...

...independence and autonomy, working in their own way because they find school quite constraining for other people. They found it quite difficult on, I think, you know. But basically what we need to convey from the school perspective to both students on their parents is a greater degree of confidence. So that were kind of, you know, don't worry. We've got it in hand, you know, we've got it under control on DH. I think one of the things that's being nice for me about atrial is she, you know, possible we're trying to do is May, as you mentioned before, may build capacity and students so they can flourish in any kind of environment so they can deal with whatever comes their way in the future. Actually, we have found the students in our schools have been better able to cope with co bed simply because there are a bit more independent and enterprising, but also because, you know, they're kind of take it. Oh, yeah, this is interesting them How do we deal with this one rather than, Oh my goodness, what should we do? And that's part of what we're trying to build in the sense of the students of Oh, take that down to the minute G I When you get to an exam on you, look at the paper in the exam. I've done research into your lives into this whole question of why did some people do well in exams and some north on the Really? The answer to this is that there are broadly three kinds of questions in exams. There's a sort of very straightforward, settling questions everybody can get. There's a sort of second set of questions which bit more demanding and replied, required to use your knowledge in some way, and most people could do this on, then the third set of questions are more unconventional. You may not even quite recognise it as being something you've learned, so you've got to sort of figure it out a bit. And the interesting thing is that people do well in exams, can cope with that third section. So you know what's the consequence is that we need to teach people how to figure things out. So what we want in the way that we try to educate the Children and young people, is that when they're faced with that sort of situation in the exam, I describe it as a fork in the road. So when you read that question and it doesn't come up in the fall that you would torch it, those two possible reactions one reaction is we didn't learn it that way. I can't do the question just completely. It's all going to hell in a hand cart was nothing I could do on their crumple. On the other is that you? Look at it. You think Trump's you know, we didn't do it quite like that, and then you read it again and anything, but it's a bit like so and so So, actually, I I think if I approached it in this kind of way, that probably about about in the right ballpark. Now that's what you know. We call Connexion, finding linking intellectual confidence all of those sort of competences that we're trying to develop now. Some people have always had that. Andi is one of the reasons why in research turns, you know, in exams, boys do better than girls because, you know, in general terms and this is a generality about. Boys tend to overestimate themselves, and girls underestimate themselves. So when it's in a situation where it's a bit unknown, you know, boys will take a punt on. That's what the research sort of shows, whereas girls are kind of, you know, if I don't really understand it, I can't do it. So what kind of just trying to do is to replicate that behaviour, which enables you to do well now if you take that is the sort of you know, the fine example. It's exactly the same thing when you put you in any other unknown circumstances about trying tto have you in the space where you are in a space where you kind of you don't panic. You just kind of think, you know, I'm confident enough to be able to make something out of this. But if every time in your lessons somebody has told you exactly what you have to do, you'll never learn it. You'll never learn it. So you know, because they can never prepare you for every eventuality. And, you know, I could get you waxed lyrical about another world in which we live now where, you know, things are changing so fast in all these things that we didn't know about now exists. You know, I have other kinds of things, but the reality is that, you know, it's never been the case that we could prepare people for everything. Mm. Also, now that you know what we need them to boost its Not that you don't prepare them for any of it. You prepare them for the things you know that likely to happen, and you prepare for it. But you also want to just build this kind of disposition where people feel confident enough to have a go unworried if they don't get it right. So you know, because of eliminate. We've got this come penalty in education about, you know, as a teacher, all the things we can say is you need to in your lesson, you need to reward having a go. You know, your view. Expressing an opinion as much is getting it right. Because if you don't, then people will only put forward their idea of the 100% certain. That means they're never going to be in that risk space, which 50% of the time is gonna work out fine and give them a much better outcome. So, you know, if we build this sort of this whole...

...concept of everything has to be 100% right, we just don't build the kind of mind set that we really need for learners because, you know, kind of it doesn't matter where you are in learning whether you have sophisticated doing sophisticated, no post doctoral work, whether you're doing you know, you're in early years and foundation steak that will make any difference. It's always the same process, which is that you don't you start off optimistically and it'll feel fantastic. And then you hit some barriers where you think I can work this out? It won't work on you know, if you three you might stamp your feet. If you're 33 you might stamp your feet metaphorically. But the kind of idea that our cards and then you just need to be in that space of knowing only if I could, you know, Let's all now get on with it. It's good, I think, generally in the early years of the year, curriculum is much more focused on that. That the square thing isn't going to go in there and told however, many times you smack it. But I'm not gonna tell you which hold. It'll go now. We'll let you smack it till you work it out and you have a go. You have a risk. We try and get it in the crescent shaped. You know, we will watch Children until they actually wow on the joy when they put the thing through. But I just wanted to come back and sort of enclosing because my passion is how we help get young people have been put in swim ladies that are so destructive or an example a part of expiration through two people referral units. We know the statistical impact that that has on their life chances. 63% of people in prison have been excluded from school at some point. How are you engaged with those institutions to try and change that culture, or if you haven't directly worked in people referring, it's how do you change that culture? So how do you get people out of that worst swim? Lane is a place of bringing everybody just into the top swim line. I think we haven't done anywhere yet with Cruz, and that's just partly because H time we're working on h feel in particular context. We have to figure out with that context how to make it work because it's not do. It's different. It's just that certain aspects of it need to be more pronounced, for example. So, for example, if I just go back to my project in Leeds, the education had Christian, he describes it. But the idea of belief being sort of like an infection that you've become infected with that self belief if your parts of our schools on that it's really important that you become infected with it, because when you're outside while school, some people are undermining it, so we need to be you know our infection. That needs to be really, really powerful. Now you don't need it to be so powerful. If you're in an elite independent school way, probably know all that already about yourself. You already gained a view of yourself. That kind of suggests that. So I think when you're talking about people who improves off in prison or in other kinds of places, I think that pompous if there is help, really, quite overtly be talking about the fact that firstly, about what we know about how people can develop it, So the favour you haven't done it now does not mean that you're incapable of doing it. And there's so much evidence about that, right from things like the Open University, which, you know, was built on the premise that you knew you might not have done well in school. But, you know, you still could on people have hundreds of thousands off on, then also kind of talking about some of what we know. We now know, and it's sort of new knowledge. But all of this should change how you think about yourself on DH. So, for example, if you know people referral unit you're in that unit Because the certain behaviours that you've exhibited when you've been in school, which have bean unacceptable on kind of understanding that one of the reasons why most students behave in that kind of ways because organism obviously a range of and sometimes quite complex reasons a lot of it is around the fact that, you know, you kind of you feel a sense of powerlessness. So it's just that you're I mean, imagine if in the conventional school environment you're the bottom set, you're going along to the bottom set on a regular basis. You know, you're in the bottom set, you know that. No. Is going real expectations of you because you're in the bottom set. Nobody wants to be in the bottom, certainly wants to teach the bottom set on. You're gonna be there for another six years. You have to be pretty compliant to put up with that on DH. I think you knew people who don't put up with it. We shouldn't just think of them as being people who are somehow difficult and awkward. You know, we should be recognising the situation in which we're putting them in terms of how to work on again. You know, we know so much more about things like, you know, adverse childhood experiences and the effect that they have on different individuals so some people can cope with far more than others on again. You know, we should just be less judgmental about kind of how we make decisions about people. And I'm just reminded,... know, sometimes just made me think that a long, long time ago in my career I was working with the local secondary school and I was talking. The deputy head of the student showed up late, very late for school on DH was shown on the deck. It Can you just wait a minute while I just deal with this on DH? He said to the student, You know, Okay, So where are you in the timetable, then it's breaking 10 minutes, I think. Do you want to go into the lesson you should be in or do you want to sit quietly, active 10 minutes and then join the next world? Then, when he came back in again, he said, I expect you're wondering why I didn't reprimand that student. And I said I wasn't wondering. I think it'll actually I said. But, you know, tell me. And he said, Well, because they're a family that have bean there in bed and breakfast housing on DH last week, they got infected from their current and records, which is, you know, within very easy reach in school on there Now, you know, 25 miles away on DH. She missed the bus, the school bus that would have got in school on. He said them. She waited for another one and he said, You know, I'm not going to punish her for being late because she exhibited exactly the behaviour I wanted, which was that she stopped with it and came to school. Whereas it would have been much easier just to say I missed the bus and went home. Yeah, I think they at its best, we have loads of educators in school who have that kind of ability to think compassionately and creatively and figure out. You know, I'm going to make a judgement around this because of this particular circumstance, and that's why a heavy hand from above is so unhelpful because it's like, you know, she becomes a student. Then she was late for school and therefore your statistics. This child, he just figures that someone who's like the school No, I remember that in my own family that, like you, my kids of adults. Now I'm now grandma. Remember when my son, like, didn't often take him to school? But I gave him a list of secondary school because of some reason why we're driving in a queue of traffic in our city, and there's a bus lane on. A boy was knocked off his bike and I stopped my car to get out and stay with him until the ambulance came. And my son came home from school that day and said them, I got a late mark, he said. I explained to them that the choice was being on time for school and somebody potentially dying or alternatively sticking around to help out. I'm getting a late mark. So So I've got detention on you. Just think, you know, sometimes we just need a bit more humanity in the way that we work in school. On most of the time, life with my son, it doesn't really matter. I think I just felt it was unjust and unfair. But if that's happened to you regularly and often then your sense of honour. Also, you know, you're living quite a difficult life at home on DH, you're having to be very resilient, persistent. Just continue then. You know, sometimes schools can feel like they are a bit uncompromising. And I think you when you get a child, then you've been a good chunk. Children who referred into people referral units there already, you know, had all of this experience that he's trying to untangle. So I think you have to help them reset. I know, and I'm sure that there are people who are very experienced at that and much more skilled than I am. I think part of that reset is getting them to understand that you whatever has happened, whatever the background is et cetera. It. The reality is the evidence is that they have it within them to be potentially high performer. So, you know, let's get back to basics and start looking at how that's gonna happen. You know, I just think that that's the starting point, because it is, as I say, You know, just because you have it within it doesn't mean it's going to happen. But you want to instil that belief because nothing else is possible until you believe that on that belief is the key two, enabling the building to occur in whatever way to remove the problems of the causing you to lose your temper quickly or whatever else it is that's causing the problem. But if you've got this sense of yourself is being worthless. Nothing. It's a just sticking plaster, anything that you do fantastic professors ever. And that was absolutely brilliant. And I wish you all the very best of luck with high performance Learning Services might very much your next big contractors in people Romero in its because they actually we need to get that sense of belief into young people. Thank you so much for your time today. Now it's been an absolute pleasure. You know, we're really interested in hearing from ambitious head teachers who want their school to work in this way. So it's just go and look for us on high performance learning dot co dot UK. We'd love to hear from you, Harry. That's fantastic. Thank you so much. Really interesting. Thank you. Get good. Thank you for listening to this episode of third Millennium Education. I'd like... know what has been your biggest takeaway from this conversation. If he did enjoy this episode, do hit the subscribe button to continue to receive future episodes. Casts. If you would like to be interviewed or you know somebody who would be good to interview, please also get in touch. I hope you'll join me on the next episode, and together we can carry on the conversation to ensure that we can best meet the needs of Third Millennium Learners employers in the country. Thank you again and see you on the next episode.

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